Turin Shroud may be genuine after all

UPI via The Washington Times ^ | 10/9/2002 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[SteveH]

GURAT, France, Sept. 24 (UPI) -- The Turin Shroud bearing the features of a crucified man may well be the cloth that enveloped the body of Christ, a renowned textile historian told United Press International Tuesday.

Disputing inconclusive carbon-dating tests suggesting the shroud hailed from medieval times, Swiss specialist Mechthild Flury-Lemberg said it could be almost 2,000 years old.

[john in missouri]

I'd be real careful about more or less referring to a bit of important evidence that God just may have left behind for those of us who don't just believe whatever we're told, as "crap."

[Asclepius]

Gee, whatever happened to faith?

Faith? Who needs that? I've got my eternal security certificate.

[Judith Anne]

Yes, thanks, that's the guy I was thinking of.

[Judith Anne]

"Now we have a "textile expert" telling us it's Christ on a blanket. Who's next, a sewing expert? The only person who can tell us if it is Christ is Christ. The bible warns of all this there He is there He is crap. Gosh! You seem SO well informed...

[Johnny Shear]

But some people will do anything to destroy Christianity.

Why do scientific theories have to be "Destroying Christianity"???

Scientists offer opinions...You've offered accusations...Not very "Christian" of you...

[MHT]

If it was hammered, why does the blood not permeate the cloth? The pressure of the hammer would force substances through the cloth itself.

[MHT]

The Discovery channel has done a continuing series about the shroud, its invalidation, and the more recent research since its carbon-dating. Many public libraries have this in their stacks. It is a worthy series which gives a very good background on the shroud.

[Judith Anne]

Christianity rests on Christ, and Christ alone...and He will never be destroyed, so there is no need to fear shroud debunkers. Even if it is genuine, it is much less importance than the place Christ holds in our lives...

But for those who are interested, this is an excellent site...

http://www.shroud.com

[Quix]

MUCH THANKS. I've been skeptical of a lot of the nay-saying for some time. I agree that faith is faith.

But thankfully, our's is a most rational faith--based on a very long list of solid evidence--not mere skyhooks.

In the coming months and years when reality itself appears to be going through topsy-turvey convolutions defying conception, it will become increasingly crucial to hold onto the hand of The Man from Galilee. Truly His Sheep must know His Voice.

So-called proofs may throw all the rocks of hell at the Resurrection and whatever other foundations of our most Holy Faith as they may find purchase to assault. But He is ever faithful to keep that which we have committed unto Him against That Day--including our very essence, our very selves--our eternal personalities and souls. Even our bodies shall miraculously also experience His Resurrection Life. That should be a fascinating process for those eaten, those cremated and those buried at sea.

Forget seat-belts, saints--This E-ticket ride won't need them. Hallelujah!

[Physicist]

Historian Karlheinz Dietz of Wuerzburg University in Germany shares Flury-Lemberg's doubts of the 1988 carbon-dating results claiming that the cloth was made between 1260 and 1290.

In an interview with the Germany daily, Die Welt, he stated, "If you believe that the cloth hails from the Middle Ages then you must also believe that a man looking exactly like Jesus ... was whipped, crowned with thorns, crucified and then placed on linen imported from the Middle East and sprinkled with aloe and myrrh, and that on top of all he had invented monumental photography."

That's it? That's the rebuttal of the radiocarbon dating? "I don't see how this could have been done, therefore it must have been magic, therefore the radiocarbon dating can simply be disregarded."

<shakes head>

And about him saying "looks exactly like Jesus"...we have no idea what Jesus looked like. I'm partial to Caravaggio's powerful version, myself.

[sneakypete]

In an interview with the Germany daily, Die Welt, he stated, "If you believe that the cloth hails from the Middle Ages then you must also believe that a man looking exactly like Jesus ..

"Looking exactly like Jesus",huh? Exactly how does this "unbiased expert" know what Jesus looked like?

[BearCub]

I really wish that I knew more about this. My current thinking is that it is a type of painting where a clay statue is made and then covered with paint. The cloth is layed over the statue and then made to conform to the statue with felt hammers. This accounts for the image being only on the surface and the almost photographic nature of the image.

From the site linked above:

No one knows for sure how the images were created. The images are scorch-like, yet not created by heat and are a purely surface phenomenon limited to the crowns of the top fibers. The Shroud is clearly not a painting. There are no signs of penetration; the blood was on the Cloth before the image (an unlikely way for an artist to work); there is no outline (which world-renowned artist Isabel Piczek calls the horizon event of art); there are no brush strokes, no style of any period or directionality; no binders to hold paint; no evidence of paint, dye, ink, chalk creating the images. The Images shows a perfect photo-negativity and 3 Dimensionality. It is not a Vaporgraph or natural result of vapors. Current theories suggest a possible scorch caused light from a miliburst of radiation consistent with the timing of at the Resurrection resulting in a rapid dehydration; oxidation/degradation of linen coloring it a sepia or straw yellow.

Note: some microscopic particles of paint exist on the Shroud, but these do not constitute the image. During the Middle Ages a practice called the "sanctification of paintings" permitted about 50 artists to paint replicas of the Shroud and then lay their paintings over the Shroud to "sanctify" them. This permitted contact transfer of particles which then migrated around the cloth with the folding and rolling of the Shroud when opened for exhibit and closed again afterwards.

[Licensed-To-Carry]

Oh Ye Of Little Faith

Read Luke 16:19-31 and you will understand why some will never believe.

19Jesus said, "There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury.

20At his door lay a diseased beggar named Lazarus.

21As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man's table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.

22Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,23and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham.

24"The rich man shouted, `Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.'

25"But Abraham said to him, `Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.26And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us.'

27"Then the rich man said, `Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father's home.28For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won't have to come here when they die.'

29"But Abraham said, `Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.'

30"The rich man replied, `No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.'

31"But Abraham said, `If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"

[sharktrager]

There are other reasons to question the radiocarbon dating. The fire the shroud survived, as well as contamination from times it was less well protected, sould have skewed the results.

Additionally, radiocarbon dating has often been far from accurate, particularly when dealing with hundred os years rather than tens of thousands or more. There have been radiocarbon trials in which a living snail was found to be several hundred years old.

[yendu bwam]

But those who have faith, do not need the shroud to be real,and those with no faith, would never believe the shroud, or the resurrection,is real, even if they were eye witnesses to the event,and carried the shroud back to now, themselves.

But sometimes, in some places, where one least expects it, the preponderance of evidence, combined with the strange turnings of the heart, leads a once unbeliever to see a glimmer of bright light - that shines through all the scum and darkness of our world. Each small thing that so leads may bring a few more into the light. The Shroud of Turin is once such small thing.

[yendu bwam]

The true measure of it is what lies in the hearts of each believer.

Amen dico vobis quia unus vestrum me traditurus est.

[Dustbunny]

Of course the Turin Shroud is the shroud of Christ.

Satan would have us all think it isn't.

[ELS]

bump

[ZULU]

"However, this cloth left a radiant expression on me," Flury-Lemberg told UPI. She made it clear she was not a Roman Catholic but a Lutheran, "but this shroud is not just a Catholic relic but a treasure of all Christendom."

The radio carbon dating of the Shroud material has been called into question in a book published several years ago.

When a substance of organic origin, like a textile fabric, is exposed to the air, over time bacteria grow on its surface. This bacterial layer increases with time. The bacteria eventually deposit a layer of more recent organic material on the textile's surface called "bioplastic". This bioplastic includes contaminant carbon deposits of increasingly more recent origin. Taking a sample of the cloth without removing the bioplastic produces a more recent dating of the textile material than it merits.

At the time the last carbon dating procedure was carried out, the existence of this "bioplastic" was not known. There are now techniques available to remove the contaminant bioplastic before taking the radio-carbon dating. Such a sampling SHOULD produce a much earlier date for the Shroud.

Based on all prior analysis and in light of this new data presented here, the recent pollen data, and the bioplastic issue, the Shroud in all likelihood dates to the time and place of Christ's crucifixition. While it is not possibly to DEFNINITELY prove that this relic is the burial Shroud of Christ, all indications lead me to believe that it probably is.

While Christianity is based on Faith, its always nice to have some historical evidence to substance scripture.

[Desdemona]

Ping