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Fear Grips Japan's Banking Industry, Mizuho, world's biggest bank down the limit 15%
BBC ^

Posted on 10/02/2002 10:53:14 PM PDT by BlackJack

Only days after Japan's foremost economic reformer was given a free hand, the euphoria about the chances for real change is waning.

Heizo Takenaka, appointed financial services minister on Monday as well as keeping his job as economics minister, has kicked off a top-to-bottom review of banking policy.

But while investors are sick of the trillions in bad debts crippling the banking system and want reform, they are also scared that the pain caused by any cure could be unbearable.

The result: a mass selloff of banking stocks on Thursday, driving the benchmark Nikkei down below the key 9,000 level to 19-year lows as fears of a 'hard landing' grow.

By 0500 GMT, the Nikkei was down 0.75% or 67.85 points at 8,981.48.

Global selloff

Not all the declines could be put down to concern that the government will force banks to accept public funds in exchange for more honesty about their problem loans.

Heavy falls on Wall Street overnight had accompanied bad news from a string of companies, including chipmaker AMD which warned of rising inventories and falling sales - a worrying echo of the situation as the tech boom turned to bust two years ago.

The Dow Jones index had ended the session in New York down 2.3%, with the tech-heavy Nasdaq Composite down 2.1%.

But the main influence was undoubtedly the banking worries, exacerbated by news that former central banker and key reformer Takeshi Kimura is to join Mr Takenaka's new banking task force.

Of the four biggest banks in Japan, the largest - Mizuho - and the smallest, UFJ, were worst hit by the selloff.

Both fell the full extent of their daily limit, or about 15%.

The extent of concern about Mizuho and UFJ was demonstrated by the fate of shares in the other two big players in the banking sector.

Shares in Mitsubishi Tokyo Financial Group and Sumitomo Mitsui both fell by much smaller amounts.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Business/Economy; Japan
KEYWORDS: banking; japan
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Nikkie under 9,000 and crunch time for the banks. Mizuho, the world's largest bank down 15% (the limit). What happens next? Any ideas?
1 posted on 10/02/2002 10:53:14 PM PDT by BlackJack
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To: BlackJack
central banks lose control of the gold price, it skyrockets, JPM and Citigroup are bankrupted, the Fed system is finally abandoned... maybe??...
2 posted on 10/02/2002 11:06:11 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: BlackJack
I don't know what is next. I guess it depends on how big the bubble really is and whether or not this "correction" goes to far. Perhaps it already has.

I do know this. If the stock of these companies and banks were really any indication of their true worth, or even their projected worth, most would have all gone out of business and be bankrupt by now. Traditionally, very few companies could sustain a 40-60% loss of their worth and continue to operate. That tells us there was a huge bubble ... it's just a matter of how big it really was and how close the current conditions come to setting it srtaight IMHO.

3 posted on 10/02/2002 11:07:09 PM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: BlackJack
Heavy falls on Wall Street overnight had accompanied bad news from a string of companies, including chipmaker AMD which warned of rising inventories and falling sales - a worrying echo of the situation as the tech boom turned to bust two years ago.

I've got an idea! AMD should sell a buttload of chips to Intel, and Intel should sell the same amount to AMD! Presto, instant profit!

4 posted on 10/02/2002 11:12:50 PM PDT by Timesink
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To: Jeff Head
Looks like Nikkei will close at 8936. http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=^N225&d=1d
5 posted on 10/02/2002 11:27:09 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: Timesink
Kinda like Enron trading hehe
The Fed can create money, why not.
6 posted on 10/02/2002 11:57:12 PM PDT by BlackJack
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To: Jeff Head
Two years ago I was walking the streets in Westwood, California several blocks from UCLA, glibly waving a sign that said Sore/Loserman NASDAQ 2000.  At that time the DOW was around 10,500 and the NASDAQ resided at around 2300.  I and others couldn't resist ribbing the administration of Bill Clinton for the rapid decline of the NASDAQ.  Today the DOW has dropped 29% since it's zenith and resides at 7755.  The NASDAQ has dropped more than twice that percentage.  It's lost 76% of it's former value and resides at 1187.  Both have been dropping like a rock, no confidence in a bottom at just about any level.  The NASDAQ appears headed for 950 and the DOW 5500.  Yeah, laugh at me.  I dare ya.

When markets behave like this the bad news begins to feed upon itself.  The stock buying public has lost it's shorts.  Worse than that they have lost their nerve.  It would take a total lunatic to buy in at these levels.  The wheat and the chaff were separated around 500 DOW points ago, and about 1000 NASDAQ points ago.  The business reporting community hasn't covered a positive aspect of business in what seems like months.  I'm thinking there may have actually been one or two out there somewhere.  Who knows.

Remember that quaint little phrase that we were sold on during the 80s and 90s?  "Dollar income averaging" was stuffed down our throats until we finally accepted that nothing else made sense.  If the market drops, just keep those retirement contributions flowing.  When it drops you're buying bargains.  Well I've been buying bargains since around March of 2001.  For the good of the nation, I'd like to think I was the only raisen on the grapevine, but sadly I've had lots of company.

Those who know far more than I do about the markets think we're nearing a bottom.  For the life of me I wish I could have confidence in those greater minds.  I don't like what I am seeing.  The water in the bay seems strangely still.  The tide is strangely low this evening.  Is there a tidal wave in our near future?  Can anyone state without a doubt that there isn't.  That is a major problem for a market who's buying public has seen one too many storms in recent months, washing more profits and value away.

I don't like the rumblings in Japan.  The world economic system is already experiencing enough problems.  One more domino falling is not going to help.

At a time when all this havoc is going on in the world's markets, the World Bank has determined it's a great time to facilitate nations declaring bankruptcy.  Now the only market systems that generated energy into the world's economic system are going to be taxed more, making them less stable.  Conspiratorialists should love this.  I'd probably get a pretty good kick out of some of their thoughts these days.

Just for the record, if Greenspan raises interest rates anytime soon, they can consider me on board.

7 posted on 10/03/2002 12:18:24 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Timesink
Have you been sneekin a peak at the Enron, et al play book ?
8 posted on 10/03/2002 12:56:27 AM PDT by imawit
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To: DoughtyOne
Don't you think Greenspan has been too tight? My concern is the longshoreman's strike on the west coast, said to cost $1B daily to our economy. Retail falling but homes still good.
9 posted on 10/03/2002 1:02:47 AM PDT by ChiMark
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To: DoughtyOne
Today the DOW has dropped 29% since it's zenith and resides at 7755.

Strangely enough, almost the exact amount by which the Toon administration cooked the economic books for its last two or three years.

10 posted on 10/03/2002 3:44:24 AM PDT by metesky
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To: DoughtyOne
We won't hit bottom until ALL of the optimism is gone.


BUMP

11 posted on 10/03/2002 3:46:54 AM PDT by tm22721
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To: BlackJack
Didn't think I'd see the Nikkei below the Dow in my lifetime... it's getting close.
12 posted on 10/03/2002 4:51:14 AM PDT by Teacher317
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To: BlackJack
1) It is now not possible for the Japanese markets to have a soft landing (due to the government not able to sell all of its bonds recently)

2) Only two possible options exist - both are painful. Fix it now and fast and hope the fixes restore confidence. Wait and drag it out (what is going on now)

3) The fast fix would require three phases:

Phase I - Prevent Banks from counting stocks as liquidity. The must use cash, government bonds, or unfettered investment grade commodities actually held

Phase II - Require Banks to liquidate the worst performing loan in there portfolio every 3 months until they are left with only positive performing loans.

Phase III - Restructure Banks so that investments are managed by seperate firms. Banks would be prohibited from owning shares or bonds in other companies, only investment firms would be allowed and then only on behalf of actual clients (401 or private accounts).

Each phase needs to be implemented at 6 month intervals. The sooner they get started the better. But it will be painful.
13 posted on 10/03/2002 7:59:06 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol
Good ideas bump
14 posted on 10/03/2002 8:33:38 AM PDT by GOPJ
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To: BlackJack; rohry; Wyatt's Torch; arete; LS; meyer; DarkWaters; STONEWALLS; TigerLikesRooster; ...
South America next?
15 posted on 10/03/2002 9:44:04 AM PDT by razorback-bert
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To: BlackJack
Understand, the new guy is actually a past player in the regulatory fight in Japan who was known to be urging greater efforts to clean up the banks. The extra institution he was just given control over is the regulatory body with oversight for the banks, which was defending them, sheltering them from admitting insolvancy or being closed, looking the other way at their accounting games to stay open, etc. The falls in the bank shares obviously reflect a belief that he is serious and will outright close some of the insolvant banks. Which means the depositors in them will get whatever their assets are worth, and the shareholders won't get anything.

Closing failed banks is the right thing to do, and long overdue. It is also, however, contractionary in the short term if done alone. It looks like they will finally go ahead and let the big failed ones fail, without any "too big to fail" nonsense shielding them anymore. They ought to accompany such moves with public bailouts of the better ones (in return for changes in management and coming clean about accounting games etc), with monetary stimulus by the central bank (printing more money), and with tax cuts. The other measures would offset the short term macro damage from closing the old banks, and allow the clean-up to proceed.

Understand, the banks have been broke in all but name for quite some time - in the sense of unable to meet Basel capital standards for international banks except through accounting games. They have been protected by regulators afraid to let them fail, because afraid of the overall economic damage it might cause, and because of inside dealing between the politicians and regulators and the old bankers. They wanted to wait for something to save them, or to use public money to cover their old mistakes with "no strings attached" bailouts. Pay us off with taxpayer money or we will fail and take everything with us, that was the threat. Looks like this guy is calling it.

16 posted on 10/03/2002 9:51:57 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: taxcontrol
4 loans a year wouldn't do diddly. There are $500 billion in bum loans in the system. And the real figure may be higher, because some are masked by loaning companies enough to make the miniscule interest payments later required, thus making them appear solvant. (E.g. Borrower A owes 1000. Interest rates are 1%. Lend then 100 more, they pay back 11 per year as interest, and are solvant for 9 years. Even though the value of their assets is actually 300 and their income non-existent).

You are right that it won't be fun, but going slow on loan liquidation will not help any of it. Banks will have to be closed, their desositers paid off with public money, their stockholders wiped out, collateral of bad loans seized, the assets sold to the highest bidder. That will spread economic pain well beyond the banks - but it will also get assets out of the hands of the walking dead and create actual prices for assets, with transactions possible. Right now there is simply no trading e.g. in land or most real estate, to maintain "just pretend" values in mortgage appraisals, etc. The government and central bank should help cover the short term contractionary effect of this by printing money and cutting taxes. But clean up the mess they now must, and fast. The luxury option of a long and gradual liquidation is no longer available. They blew 10 years already...

17 posted on 10/03/2002 9:59:49 AM PDT by JasonC
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To: razorback-bert
"South America next?"

...Bert, my concern is that Japanese banking problems will eventually spread to the U.S....I only have one A+ rated large bank in my area [Mercantile Bank] and I just got back from talking with them....rates of return are pretty lousy these days so I figure I might as well get a lousy return from the strongest bank I can find...and besides, my MM account at my brokers is not FDIC insured....the bank is. Never thought I would be thinking this way.

Good luck to everybody!

Stonewalls

18 posted on 10/03/2002 10:09:21 AM PDT by STONEWALLS
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To: JasonC
It's not 4 loans per year. It's 4 loans PER BANK per year. Further, it is the 4 WORST loans, per bank, per year. While it will take a couple of years to work these loans off the books, it will liquidate the most poor performing first.

Also, there will be the herding effect. Firms that have not serviced their debt and are marginally bad, will see that they need to shape up and will do so, either through improved sales or sales of those assests that are not producing. This will reduce their debt load but give folks time to correct the situation.

Lastly, loans that are marginal now, may become profitable after the economy slump is over. By that, it might be possible to improve the position of marginal companies because the dead wood which has been dragging the economy will be gone. The worst of the dead wood first.
19 posted on 10/03/2002 10:27:43 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: BlackJack
They used to say Japan was the one country where communism worked ... until 1989.
20 posted on 10/03/2002 10:38:45 AM PDT by be131
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