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To Make War, Presidents Lie
LewRockwell.com ^ | 1 October 2002 | Robert Higgs

Posted on 10/01/2002 3:13:22 AM PDT by Greybird

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To: JohnGalt
I understand and appreciate your sentiments, and share most of them myself. There's been a lot of very foolish politicking with dictators, these past thirty years, usually under the justification that "he may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch."

Mark Steyn has pointed out that this slogan works better if reversed: "He may be our son of a bitch, but he's still a son of a bitch." Playing footsie with power-mad egotists was always a mistake. It's bitten us on the rump several times. Maybe we've unlearned that particular error; at least, one can hope. But we must also deal with the problems we've created, for ourselves and others, without getting overly hung up on our embarrassment at having created them.

As for "the absurdity of going to war over WMD," I'm afraid we'll have to disagree about that. Saddam, being "rationally evil," might never use WMD outside his borders, but the linkages between his regime and "irrationally evil" groups such as al-Qaeda and the Palestinain irredentist-terrorists are strong, and I fear what they might acquire from him too much to take a relaxed view.

For further thoughts, please see:

Raising A Clenched Fist

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

81 posted on 10/01/2002 12:35:27 PM PDT by fporretto
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To: JohnGalt
there was not one resignation, one demand for a resignation, or one dismissal from our trillion dollar central intelligence aparatus over 9/11-- and yet that is the aparatus who is claiming Saddam is the next Hitler. Rather the whole thing is the fault of Saddam and the minimum wage baggage handlers.

Clinton was already gone. 9/11 is *his* legacy.

And Saddam needs to go. Are you one of the Saddamites who would let him continue his threat...Saddam's murderous past, his two invasions of neighboring countries, his open threats against the US, his firing on US and UK forces, his payments to the families of suicide-bombers, his harboring of known terrorists (Abu Nidal ring any bells?), his acceptance of terrorist training camps in Iraq, and his history of using WMD's on innocent civilians...(as the good Teacher317 listed)?

Do you vote for Dems?

82 posted on 10/01/2002 12:41:32 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: FourtySeven
God is in control.

In the meantime, Vote Republican!

83 posted on 10/01/2002 12:43:35 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: fporretto
I see the WMD rational in the same light as British war hawks who believed in a pre-emptive strike against the Kaiser before he could challenge the supremacy of the British Navy. The assination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand was met with a collective sigh of "at last, we can go to war."

The rational was so abstract and riddled with 'secret' agenda that it slowly declined to simple racist absurdities that the "Huns will eat your babies." Of course, the end result was collective suicide, the rise of Nazism and Communism and the enshrinement of Churhill, who was one of those 19-teen war hawks, as a neo-Con hero.

84 posted on 10/01/2002 12:46:37 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: .30Carbine
I'll answer your questions but then you answer mine. No, I vote Republican. I would support a letter of marque and reprisal to hire a company to remove Saddam from power for his involvement in WTC I, the Oklahoma City Bombing, and 9/11. I do not support a war against Saddam for violating United Nations rules on WMD.

Do you support UN wars?

Do you believe that if citizens were allowed to carry weapons on to airplanes as they were allowed to prior to the 1970s that 9/11 would have happened?
85 posted on 10/01/2002 12:51:35 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: Greybird
Saddam is no little brown brother to us. He is a murdering dictator who would love nothing better than seeing the terrorists use saddam's WMD against the USA. There is no analogy between what this conman mr. higgs is telling us (the Filipino-American war), and what we want to do to saddam. FREEPERs are no sheeples.
86 posted on 10/01/2002 12:52:08 PM PDT by desertcry
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To: JohnGalt
Do you support UN wars?

Hate the UN. The only way to get us outta them and them outta us is a Conservative Republican majority electing strict Constitutionalists to the bench. We are America. We are not subject to the United Nations. President Bush has made that very clear. If they happen to follow us into a war, good for them, but it makes no nevermind to US.

Do you believe that if citizens were allowed to carry weapons on to airplanes as they were allowed to prior to the 1970s that 9/11 would have happened?

As an American and a Vermonter, I carry a handgun with me wherever I go. (The carbine is for fun.) With a Republican majority voting strict Constitutionalists to the bench, every American can again enjoy the God-given right to keep and bear arms to protect ourselves from enemies, both foreign and domestic.

If 9/11 could have been prevented with handguns carried by airline passengers (and it may well could have, but then, the terrorists woulda had guns, too) but wasn't, it is because of the Liberal Democrats and the law-making rather than law-abiding judges they have appointed to the bench. Don't get me going.

87 posted on 10/01/2002 1:11:32 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Teacher317
"Basically" to make your point, you ignore Saddam's murderous past, his two invasions of neighboring countries, his open threats against the US, his firing on US and UK forces, his payments to the families of suicide-bombers, his harboring of known terrorists (Abu Nidal ring any bells?), his acceptance of terrorist training camps in Iraq, and his history of using WMD's on innocent civilians. How shallow is that?

You left off an assassination attempt on former President Bush. This act alone has largely been ignored, but I see that one act alone as sufficient grounds to remove Saddam.

88 posted on 10/01/2002 1:26:53 PM PDT by AmusedBystander
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To: AmusedBystander
So please explain to me why we plan on invading Iraq for violating UN resolutions on WMD. Are we Conservatives who believe in the rule of law or is Saddam bad enough that the 'why' doesn't so much matter?
89 posted on 10/01/2002 1:32:55 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: JohnGalt
It is explained very well here.

So many reasons, so little time.

90 posted on 10/01/2002 1:45:01 PM PDT by AmusedBystander
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To: Greybird; .30Carbine
I wrote this Robert Higgs a note:

You, sir, and Saddam Hussein are Butchers and LIARS !!

And I sent him the link and the text of this article:

Democrat Leadership Should Control Rank-And-File Saddam Apologists

WASHINGTON, Sep. 30— House Republican Conference Chairman J.C. Watts, Jr. (R-Okla.) issued the following statement on the mission to Baghdad by Congressmen David Bonior (D-Mich.), Jim McDermott (D-Wash.) and Mike Thompson (D-Calif.):

“It’s one thing to have a civil discourse on the merits of a preemptive strike or war. It’s another to fly to Iraq and take the word of a tyrant over the American president and the American people.

“At a time when America is fighting a war on terror, talk like this only helps enemies of freedom.

“Instead of lobbying for Saddam, these guys ought to come home and lobby Senate Democrats who are blocking important priorities for Americans like a Department of Homeland Security, prescription drug coverage and pension security.

“Three Democrat members of Congress in Iraq defending Saddam Hussein ought to warrant a reprimand from Minority Leader Gephardt. Surely they do not speak for the Democratic Caucus. Or do they?”

91 posted on 10/01/2002 1:48:08 PM PDT by MeekOneGOP
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To: AmusedBystander; All
It was explained very well there.
92 posted on 10/01/2002 2:00:47 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: MeeknMing
What exactly did Higgs LIE about?
93 posted on 10/01/2002 2:04:40 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: Petronius
Curious: What are some examples of pacifists getting more people killed than any hawk?

WWII. The appeasers of Germany. Nobody wanted to listen to Churchill's warnings until all hell broke loose. Governments can sign as many agreements with tyrants as they wish, listen to as many promises as desired, but this does not prevent bloodshed. So, pacifists and quislings caused tremendous death in this case and those willing to fight saved innumerable lives.

94 posted on 10/01/2002 2:13:23 PM PDT by grimalkin
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To: ET(end tyranny); MeeknMing
Hooray for you, MeekNMing! I hope he thinks about it gravely.

The first and most pervasive lie of the article is this: When American presidents prepare for foreign wars, they lie.

The final and most pervasive lie of the article is this: So Bush may be telling the truth. In the light of history, however, we would be making a long-odds bet to believe him.

Explained by a master of reasoning here.

95 posted on 10/01/2002 2:16:54 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Poohbah
A big 55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 for this article.
96 posted on 10/01/2002 2:16:59 PM PDT by A CA Guy
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To: AmusedBystander
I read the Goldberg article and none of the arguments he cites are anything more than leftist tripe or red herrings. I would like to see a serious debate with conservative objections discussed. I would like to see a conservative deal in which war with Iraq is traded for withdrawal of U.S. forces from some of the dozens of countries we protect.

I am tired of unabashed empire builders who claim to be conservative arguing against convenient red herrings. To the scare mongers on this thread: you are either one of them or you have been duped.

97 posted on 10/01/2002 2:22:49 PM PDT by palmer
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To: palmer
And you either help to vote in a Republican majority or you are complicit with the Democrats.

Want that on your tombstone?

98 posted on 10/01/2002 2:26:48 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: .30Carbine
Are you saying that the Presidents and cites that Higgs gave are lies? Are you saying that FDR did NOT purposely allow Pearl Harbor to happen? Think carefully on this one, because it is WELL documented. Wouldn't you call it mis-leading on FDR's part to deliberately mislead the public about what happened at Pearl Harbor, when FDR and the powers that be, KNEW well in advance what was going to happen to Pearl Harbor, yet they chose to purposely keep that information from those in command at Pearl Harbor?????

Pearl Harbor could have been properly warned, and the damages significantly reduced and MANY, MANY lives spared, not to mention saving most of not all of the fleet, but hey, then the people might not have been angered enough to jump into the war. The people were deliberately mislead!

99 posted on 10/01/2002 2:27:47 PM PDT by ET(end tyranny)
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To: palmer
'They' have been conditioned to except a contrived debate that pits "patriotic Conservatives" versus "anti-American leftist." They are armless to Conservative criticism and tend to choose "Fifth Columnist" (incidentally, a term coined by the fascist Franco--does the War Party appreciate the Orwellian poliitcal speak?)or "anti-Semite" to fend off any critics.
100 posted on 10/01/2002 2:28:23 PM PDT by JohnGalt
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