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RONALD REAGAN: ABORTION AND THE CONSCIENCE OF A NATION
The Human Life Review ^ | Spring, 1983 | Ronald Reagan

Posted on 09/28/2002 7:43:05 PM PDT by Askel5

Abortion and the Conscience of the Nation

Ronald Reagan

Ronald Reagan, while sitting as the fortieth president of the United States, sent us this article shortly after the tenth anniversary of Roe v. Wade; we printed it with pride in our Spring, 1983 issue, and reprint it now, after Roe's twentieth anniversary, just as proudly.

The 10th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade is a good time for us to pause and reflect. Our nationwide policy of abortion-on-demand through all nine months of pregnancy was neither voted for by our people nor enacted by our legislators— not a single state had such unrestricted abortion before the Supreme Court decreed it to be national policy in 1973. But the consequences of this judicial decision are now obvious: since 1973, more than 15 million unborn children have had their lives snuffed out by legalized abortions. That is over ten times the number of Americans lost in all our nation's wars.

Make no mistake, abortion-on-demand is not a right granted by the Constitution. No serious scholar, including one disposed to agree with the Court's result, has argued that the framers of the Constitution intended to create such a right. Shortly after the Roe v. Wade decision, Professor John Hart Ely, now Dean of Stanford Law School, wrote that the opinion "is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be." Nowhere do the plain words of the Constitution even hint at a "right" so sweeping as to permit abortion up to the time the child is ready to be born. Yet that is what the Court ruled.

As an act of "raw judicial power" (to use Justice White's biting phrase), the decision by the seven-man majority in Roe v. Wade has so far been made to stick. But the Court's decision has by no means settled the debate. Instead, Roe v. Wade has become a continuing prod to the conscience of the nation.

Abortion concerns not just the unborn child, it concerns every one of us. The English poet, John Donne, wrote: ". . . any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life— the unborn—without diminishing the value of all human life. Wesaw tragic proof of this truism last year when the Indiana courts allowed the starvation death of "Baby Doe" in Bloomington because the child had Down's Syndrome.

Many of our fellow citizens grieve over the loss of life that has followed Roe v. Wade. Margaret Heckler, soon after being nominated to head the largest department of our government, Health and Human Services, told an audience that she believed abortion to be the greatest moral crisis facing our country today. And the revered Mother Teresa, who works in the streets of Calcutta ministering to dying people in her world-famous mission of mercy, has said that "the greatest misery of our time is the generalized abortion of children."

Over the first two years of my Administration I have closely followed and assisted efforts in Congress to reverse the tide of abortion— efforts of Congressmen, Senators and citizens responding to an urgent moral crisis. Regrettably, I have also seen the massive efforts of those who, under the banner of "freedom of choice," have so far blocked every effort to reverse nationwide abortion-on-demand.

Despite the formidable obstacles before us, we must not lose heart. This is not the first time our country has been divided by a Supreme Court decision that denied the value of certain human lives. The Dred Scott decision of 1857 was not overturned in a day, or a year, or even a decade. At first, only a minority of Americans recognized and deplored the moral crisis brought about by denying the full humanity of our black brothers and sisters; but that minority persisted in their vision and finally prevailed. They did it by appealing to the hearts and minds of their countrymen, to the truth of human dignity under God. From their example, we know that respect for the sacred value of human life is too deeply engrained in the hearts of our people to remain forever suppressed. But the great majority of the American people have not yet made their voices heard, and we cannot expect them to—any more than the public voice arose against slavery—until the issue is clearly framed and presented.

What, then, is the real issue? I have often said that when we talk about abortion, we are talking about two lives—the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child. Why else do we call a pregnant woman a mother? I have also said that anyone who doesn't feel sure whether we are talking about a second human life should clearly give life the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know whether a body is alive or dead, you would never bury it. I think this consideration itself should be enough for all of us to insist on protecting the unborn.

The case against abortion does not rest here, however, for medical practice confirms at every step the correctness of these moral sensibilities. Modern medicine treats the unborn child as a patient. Medical pioneers have made great breakthroughs in treating the unborn—for genetic problems, vitamin deficiencies, irregular heart rhythms, and other medical conditions. Who can forget George Will's moving account of the little boy who underwent brain surgery six times during the nine weeks before he was born? Who is the patient if not that tiny unborn human being who can feel pain when he or she is approached by doctors who come to kill rather than to cure?

The real question today is not when human life begins, but, What is the value of human life? The abortionist who reassembles the arms and legs of a tiny baby to make sure all its parts have been torn from its mother's body can hardly doubt whether it is a human being. The real question for him and for all of us is whether that tiny human life has a God-given right to be protected by the law— the same right we have.

What more dramatic confirmation could we have of the real issue than the Baby Doe case in Bloomington, Indiana? The death of that tiny infant tore at the hearts of all Americans because the child was undeniably a live human being—one lying helpless before the eyes of the doctors and the eyes of the nation. The real issue for the courts was not whether Baby Doe was a human being. The real issue was whether to protect the life of a human being who had Down's Syndrome, who would probably be mentally handicapped, but who needed a routine surgical procedure to unblock his esophagus and allow him to eat. A doctor testified to the presiding judge that, even with his physical problem corrected, Baby Doe would have a "non-existent" possibility for "a minimally adequate quality of life"—in other words, that retardation was the equivalent of a crime deserving the death penalty. The judge let Baby Doe starve and die, and the Indiana Supreme Court sanctioned his decision.

Federal law does not allow federally-assisted hospitals to decide that Down's Syndrome infants are not worth treating, much less to decide to starve them to death. Accordingly, I have directed the Departments of Justice and HHS to apply civil rights regulations to protect handicapped newborns. All hospitals receiving federal funds must post notices which will clearly state that failure to feed handicapped babies is prohibited by federal law. The basic issue is whether to value and protect the lives of the handicapped, whether to recognize the sanctity of human life. This is the same basic issue that underlies the question of abortion.

The 1981 Senate hearings on the beginning of human life brought out the basic issue more clearly than ever before. The many medical and scientific witnesses who testified disagreed on many things, but not on the scientific evidence that the unborn child is alive, is a distinct individual, or is a member of the human species. They did disagree over the value question, whether to give value to a human life at its early and most vulnerable stages of existence.

Regrettably, we live at a time when some persons do not value all human life. They want to pick and choose which individuals have value. Some have said that only those individuals with "consciousness of self" are human beings. One such writer has followed this deadly logic and concluded that "shocking as it may seem, a newly born infant is not a human being."

A Nobel Prize winning scientist has suggested that if a handicapped child "were not declared fully human until three days after birth, then all parents could be allowed the choice." In other words, "quality control" to see if newly born human beings are up to snuff.

Obviously, some influential people want to deny that every human life has intrinsic, sacred worth. They insist that a member of the human race must have certain qualities before they accord him or her status as a "human being."

Events have borne out the editorial in a California medical journal which explained three years before Roe v. Wade that the social acceptance of abortion is a "defiance of the long-held Western ethic of intrinsic and equal value for every human life regardless of its stage, condition, or status."

Every legislator, every doctor, and every citizen needs to recognize that the real issue is whether to affirm and protect the sanctity of all human life, or to embrace a social ethic where some human lives are valued and others are not. As a nation, we must choose between the sanctity of life ethic and the "quality of life" ethic.

I have no trouble identifying the answer our nation has always given to this basic question, and the answer that I hope and pray it will give in the future. American was founded by men and women who shared a vision of the value of each and every individual. They stated this vision clearly from the very start in the Declaration of Independence, using words that every schoolboy and schoolgirl can recite:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

We fought a terrible war to guarantee that one category of mankind— black people in America—could not be denied the inalienable rights with which their Creator endowed them. The great champion of the sanctity of all human life in that day, Abraham Lincoln, gave us his assessment of the Declaration's purpose. Speaking of the framers of that noble document, he said:

This was their majestic interpretation of the economy of the Universe. This was their lofty, and wise, and noble understanding of the justice of the Creator to His creatures. Yes, gentlemen, to all his creatures, to the whole great family of man. In their enlightened belief, nothing stamped with the divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on. . . They grasped not only the whole race of man then living, but they reached forward and seized upon the farthest posterity. They erected a beacon to guide their children and their children's children, and the countless myriads who should inhabit the earth in other ages.

He warned also of the danger we would face if we closed our eyes to the value of life in any category of human beings:

I should like to know if taking this old Declaration of Independence, which declares that all men are equal upon principle and making exceptions to it where will it stop. If one man says it does not mean a Negro, why not another say it does not mean some other man?

When Congressman John A. Bingham of Ohio drafted the Fourteenth Amendment to guarantee the rights of life, liberty, and property to all human beings, he explained that all are "entitled to the protection of American law, because its divine spirit of equality declares that all men are created equal." He said the right guaranteed by the amendment would therefore apply to "any human being." Justice William Brennan, writing in another case decided only the year before Roe v. Wade, referred to our society as one that "strongly affirms the sanctity of life."

Another William Brennan—not the Justice—has reminded us of the terrible consequences that can follow when a nation rejects the sanctity of life ethic:

The cultural environment for a human holocaust is present whenever any society can be misled into defining individuals as less than human and therefore devoid of value and respect.

As a nation today, we have not rejected the sanctity of human life. The American people have not had an opportunity to express their view on the sanctity of human life in the unborn. I am convinced that Americans do not want to play God with the value of human life. It is not for us to decide who is worthy to live and who is not. Even the Supreme Court's opinion in Roe v. Wade did not explicitly reject the traditional American idea of intrinsic worth and value in all human life; it simply dodged this issue.

The Congress has before it several measures that would enable our people to reaffirm the sanctity of human life, even the smallest and the youngest and the most defenseless. The Human Life Bill expressly recognizes the unborn as human beings and accordingly protects them as persons under our Constitution. This bill, first introduced by Senator Jesse Helms, provided the vehicle for the Senate hearings in 1981 which contributed so much to our understanding of the real issue of abortion.

The Respect Human Life Act, just introduced in the 98th Congress, states in its first section that the policy of the United States is "to protect innocent life, both before and after birth." This bill, sponsored by Congressman Henry Hyde and Senator Roger Jepsen, prohibits the federal government from performing abortions or assisting those who do so, except to save the life of the mother. It also addresses the pressing issue of infanticide which, as we have seen, flows inevitably from permissive abortion as another step in the denial of the inviolability of innocent human life.

I have endorsed each of these measures, as well as the more difficult route of constitutional amendment, and I will give these initiatives my full support. Each of them, in different ways, attempts to reverse the tragic policy of abortion-on-demand imposed by the Supreme Court ten years ago. Each of them is a decisive way to affirm the sanctity of human life.

We must all educate ourselves to the reality of the horrors taking place. Doctors today know that unborn children can feel a touch within the womb and that they respond to pain. But how many Americans are aware that abortion techniques are allowed today, in all 50 states, that burn the skin of a baby with a salt solution, in an agonizing death that can last for hours?

Another example: two years ago, the Philadelphia Inquirer ran a Sunday special supplement on "The Dreaded Complication." The "dreaded complication" referred to in the article—the complication feared by doctors who perform abortions—is the survival of the child despite all the painful attacks during the abortion procedure. Some unborn children do survive the late-term abortions the Supreme Court has made legal. Is there any question that these victims of abortion deserve our attention and protection? Is there any question that those who don't survive were living human beings before they were killed?

Late-term abortions, especially when the baby survives, but is then killed by starvation, neglect, or suffocation, show once again the link between abortion and infanticide. The time to stop both is now. As my Administration acts to stop infanticide, we will be fully aware of the real issue that underlies the death of babies before and soon after birth.

Our society has, fortunately, become sensitive to the rights and special needs of the handicapped, but I am shocked that physical or mental handicaps of newborns are still used to justify their extinction. This Administration has a Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop, who has done perhaps more than any other American for handicapped children, by pioneering surgical techniques to help them, by speaking out on the value of their lives, and by working with them in the context of loving families. You will not find his former patients advocating the so-called "quality-of-life" ethic.

I know that when the true issue of infanticide is placed before the American people, with all the facts openly aired, we will have no trouble deciding that a mentally or physically handicapped baby has the same intrinsic worth and right to life as the rest of us. As the New Jersey Supreme Court said two decades ago, in a decision upholding the sanctity of human life, "a child need not be perfect to have a worthwhile life."

Whether we are talking about pain suffered by unborn children, or about late-term abortions, or about infanticide, we inevitably focus on the humanity of the unborn child. Each of these issues is a potential rallying point for the sanctity of life ethic. Once we as a nation rally around any one of these issues to affirm the sanctity of life, we will see the importance of affirming this principle across the board.

Malcolm Muggeridge, the English writer, goes right to the heart of the matter: "Either life is always and in all circumstances sacred, or intrinsically of no account; it is inconceivable that it should be in some cases the one, and in some the other." The sanctity of innocent human life is a principle that Congress should proclaim at every opportunity.

It is possible that the Supreme Court itself may overturn its abortion rulings. We need only recall that in Brown v. Board of Education the court reversed its own earlier "separate-but-equal" decision. I believe if the Supreme Court took another look at Roe v. Wade, and considered the real issue between the sanctity of life ethic and the quality of life ethic, it would change its mind once again.

As we continue to work to overturn Roe v. Wade, we must also continue to lay the groundwork for a society in which abortion is not the accepted answer to unwanted pregnancy. Pro-life people have already taken heroic steps, often at great personal sacrifice, to provide for unwed mothers. I recently spoke about a young pregnant woman named Victoria, who said, "In this society we save whales, we save timber wolves and bald eagles and Coke bottles. Yet, everyone wanted me to throw away my baby." She has been helped by Save-a-Life, a group in Dallas, which provides a way for unwed mothers to preserve the human life within them when they might otherwise be tempted to resort to abortion. I think also of House of His Creation in Catesville, Pennsylvania, where a loving couple has taken in almost 200 young women in the past ten years. They have seen, as a fact of life, that the girls are not better off having abortions than saving their babies. I am also reminded of the remarkable Rossow family of Ellington, Connecticut, who have opened their hearts and their home to nine handicapped adopted and foster children.

The Adolescent Family Life Program, adopted by Congress at the request of Senator Jeremiah Denton, has opened new opportunities for unwed mothers to give their children life. We should not rest until our entire society echoes the tone of John Powell in the dedication of his book, Abortion: The Silent Holocaust, a dedication to every woman carrying an unwanted child: "Please believe that you are not alone. There are many of us that truly love you, who want to stand at your side, and help in any way we can." And we can echo the always-practical woman of faith, Mother Teresa, when she says, "If you don't want the little child, that unborn child, give him to me." We have so many families in America seeking to adopt children that the slogan "every child a wanted child" is now the emptiest of all reasons to tolerate abortion.

I have often said we need to join in prayer to bring protection to the unborn. Prayer and action are needed to uphold the sanctity of human life. I believe it will not be possible to accomplish our work, the work of saving lives, "without being a soul of prayer." The famous British Member of Parliament, William Wilberforce, prayed with his small group of influential friends, the "Clapham Sect," for decades to see an end to slavery in the British empire. Wilberforce led that struggle in Parliament, unflaggingly, because he believed in the sanctity of human life. He saw the fulfillment of his impossible dream when Parliament outlawed slavery just before his death.

Let his faith and perseverance be our guide. We will never recognize the true value of our own lives until we affirm the value in the life of others, a value of which Malcolm Muggeridge says:. . . however low it flickers or fiercely burns, it is still a Divine flame which no man dare presume to put out, be his motives ever so humane and enlightened."

Abraham Lincoln recognized that we could not survive as a free land when some men could decide that others were not fit to be free and should therefore be slaves. Likewise, we cannot survive as a free nation when some men decide that others are not fit to live and should be abandoned to abortion or infanticide. My Administration is dedicated to the preservation of America as a free land, and there is no cause more important for preserving that freedom than affirming the transcendent right to life of all human beings, the right without which no other rights have any meaning.

 

Published by:

The Human Life Foundation, Inc.
215 Lexington Avenue, New York, New York 10016



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; Philosophy
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To: Kobyashi1942; DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
Again, obviously you can't stand the fact that some cultures put value on self-sacrifice and bravery than other cutltures do.

The self-sacrifice and bravery of Japanese culture really shines through in this relatively innocuous photo of Allies in a Japanese POW camp.

I have battled your form of racism for many, many years. To you, it is an embarassment that it the most decorated American fighting unit in the entire war was a JAPANESE unit, the 442 CRT.

Were they Japanese or Americans? Hmmmmmm? The 442nd were Americans of Japanese descent fighting in Europe.

Hah! First you imprison them and their famlies, take away all their private possessions (talk about blatant racism run rampant in the supposedly "democratic" United States) and than they have to show your all-white units how to fight! I won't mention the cover-up the white US Army spent over the next 50 years trying to hide the truth about the brave men of the 442nd. Some groups are heidonistic and others aren't: deal with it.

See picture above.

121 posted on 09/30/2002 5:47:54 AM PDT by wimpycat
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To: wimpycat
Were they Japanese or Americans? Hmmmmmm? The 442nd were Americans of Japanese descent fighting in Europe.

A little history leesson for you: While they may have been U.S. citizens the United States army, government and people saw them not as citizens of this great nation, but as enemy aliens. That is why the violated their civil rights like no other group has had done to them in this last century. As bad as the blacks had it in the South during the years of Jim Crowe they were never THROWN INTO A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

Just because their ancestors were Japanese we committed unspeakable crimes against them, regardless of the fact they were US citizens. Shame on you!

122 posted on 09/30/2002 8:32:57 AM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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To: wimpycat
Horrible picture. If it were an isolated situation, as bad as it was, it would be one thing - but it's not.

You know, POWs held in the United States were given plenty to eat. Several of them actually stayed here. In contrast, the POWs held by the Japanese at Cabanatuan were given weevil-infested rice, and fought over rats when they were lucky enough to catch one that had made its way into the camp. They would fight over them, and eat them bones and all.

That is, if the prisoner wasn't gutted and pushed into a slit-trench full of human waste before dinnertime.

123 posted on 09/30/2002 11:01:55 AM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: Kobyashi1942
I'm not the one who needs a history lesson. You seem to think we're all racists or something. You must be suffering from some sort of overly self-defensive syndrome that prompts you to pre-emptively attack other people. You're the one who admires our WWII enemies so much you dedicate your screenname to one of them. Remember which side your bread is buttered on. You keep bringing up Japanese-Americans as if nobody knows about them, but yes, we all know about how they were treated during WWII, (especially after a Japanese-American traitor was instrumental in aiding the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor), but I wouldn't rank it up there with the blacks, who were enslaved or the Native Americans. Puhleeze.

But you are not singing the praises of them, or the 442nd, but of the "self-sacrifice and bravery" of the Imperial Japanese. Look at how they treated their concentration camp victims and tell us all again how culturally superior the Japanese were to the Americans. Compare photos of Japanese-Americans in their camps with Allied POWs in Japanese camps and see for yourself who valued human life or basic human rights more. There weren't any Japanese-American living skeletons in the U.S. You didn't see them beaten to death and starved to death or walking around with not even enough flesh on their bones to keep their bodies and souls together.

The internment camps is a shameful chapter in U.S. history, but that is nothing, nothing compared to the complete lack of humanity on the part of the Imperial Japanese. The Japanese to this day don't teach their students about how they treated their prisoners. It isn't taught in their schools. We acknowledge our shameful acts much more than they do theirs.

124 posted on 09/30/2002 4:14:33 PM PDT by wimpycat
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To: Askel5
Bump

For later reading.

125 posted on 09/30/2002 4:23:20 PM PDT by DreamWeaver
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To: wimpycat
Very, very well said, wimpycat.

POWs held by the Japanese during WWII were likely to die in captivity by an astounding ratio compared to others. I guess when you can be decapitated for sneezing, it's bound to pad the numbers a little bit.

And it wasn't just treatment of POWs.

I have to wonder where "bravery and self-sacrifice" came into play when firecrackers were inserted into the bodily cavities of Filipino women who refused to give away the whereabouts of Americans. I have to wonder how "brave and self-sacrificing" one has to be to tie those women to poles and light the fuses while their children watch, screaming.

We are not blameless, but there simply is no equivalence here. The Japanese have much to be proud of, but the environment cultivated by their military in the 1940s is not one of those things.
126 posted on 09/30/2002 5:22:21 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: wimpycat
The internment camps is a shameful chapter in U.S. history, but that is nothing, nothing compared to the complete lack of humanity on the part of the Imperial Japanese. The Japanese to this day don't teach their students about how they treated their prisoners. It isn't taught in their schools. We acknowledge our shameful acts much more than they do theirs.

I freely admit that the IJA committed many, many evil and distasteful atrocities. You will get no argument from me. Unlike you though, I am able to separate the criminal elements of the Japanese armed forces from the rest of the men who fought with honor and distinction.

I'm sure you don't judge all the the American armed forces by the criminal fire bombing of DRESDEN or Tokyo, right? I'm sure you don't judge all the the allied forces by the fact that over 1,000,000 German soldaten were allowed to die in POW camps in the year AFTER the war was over. Nor will me mention the fact that Eisenhower knowingly sent some 2,000,000 patriotic Russians and Ukrainians to the death when he handed them over to the evil Soviet armed forces at the end of the war (these Russian and Ukrainian men's only crime was to have surrendured to the Germans during the war). Eisenhower was told by his intelligence that these poor slavs would be killed, but that didn't stop him.

Don't lecture me on war crimes pal, our fecal matter stinks just like the rest. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

127 posted on 09/30/2002 11:10:51 PM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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To: wimpycat
I wonder if our history buff knows who these men were.


128 posted on 10/01/2002 12:20:53 AM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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This pretty much speaks for itself, I think:

"Kill-All Order" of August 1, 1944
War Ministry, Tokyo
When the battle situation becomes urgent the POWs will be concentrated and confined in their location and kept under heavy guard until preparations for the final disposition will be made. Although the basic aim is to act under superior orders, individual disposition may be made in certain circumstances. Whether they are destroyed individually or in groups, and whether it is accomplished by means of mass bombing, poisonous smoke, poisons, drowning, or decapitation, dispose of them as the situation dictates. It is the aim not to allow the escape of a single one, to annihilate them all, and not to leave any traces.

129 posted on 10/01/2002 12:32:56 AM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: Kobyashi1942; wimpycat
Don't lecture me on war crimes pal...

You will never win the moral equivalence argument. You are beaten. You were beaten before you picked this fight. Now you're talking about the Allies. I guess you've run out of American "atrocities".

That didn't take long.

Furthermore, you can't narrow this sick mentality down to an incident or two, no matter how hard you try. It was rampant. And it was evil. And it was apparently sanctioned at high levels. Explain to me how a couple of bad apples resulted in what happened at Nanking. At Bataan (by some accounts, a decapitation every fifteen paces). And created a "kill all" order for POWs. And performed experimental surgery on downed pilots. And cannibalized pilots who had been shot down over Chi Chi Jima. And sliced Filipino women's babies from the womb. And on, and on, and on.

As I stated before, the Japanese have many things to take pride in. The conduct of their military in WWII is not one of those things, no matter how you try to point the finger elsewhere.

You've demonstrated your loathing for the United States here and on other threads (does "Stupid, stupid, stupid Americans" ring a bell? Yes, I saw your comment regarding the men who died on Iwo Jima). Evidently, you have some issues to work out.

I just wish you weren't doing it here.

In any case, I've got no time to converse with someone living on American soil who glorifies the death of American sailors. I've got better things to do. I'm through with you.

130 posted on 10/01/2002 1:45:25 AM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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I freely admit that the IJA committed many, many evil and distasteful atrocities. You will get no argument from me.

Well, at least wimpycat got this much out of you; I didn't acknowledge it when I replied, and I should have. I have to say it makes your prior claim of Japanese military cultural superiority fall rather flat.

And I've one more point to make before I leave this thread.

The same mindset that created Mohammed Atta created the one you say fought with "honor and distinction".

You might want to give that some thought.

Now I am through with you.

131 posted on 10/01/2002 2:57:17 AM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
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To: Kobyashi1942
Is it an accident that you chose a Japanese military figure to honor rather than the Americans of the 442nd? If you wanted to honor the accomplishments of Americans of Japanese descent, why didn't you call yourself "Nisei", or "Go For Broke!" or maybe "Sadao Munemori". On, April 5, 1945 Sadao Munemori saved the lives of two other American soldiers by diving on a German grenade. He is the only Japanese American awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor during World War II. Of all the Japanese Americans whose exploits are worthy of recognition, but nooooooooooo, you had to go and pick an Imperial Japanese flyboy, for heaven's sake.

For more about Japanese Americans' contributions, click on theJapanese American National Museum.

132 posted on 10/01/2002 5:54:36 AM PDT by wimpycat
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Kobyashi1942
I can tell you who the men were in the picture you posted in #124. It is a picture of men whose B-29 was shot down over Japan. A number of them were surgically experimented on.


The fate of these men:

Watkins (pilot) -- Taken to Tokyo, interrogated, and interned at Omori POW Camp. Released at end of war. Died in 1989? in Virginia.
Fredericks (co-pilot) -- Died during vivisection experiment
Shingledecker (bombardier) -- Place & means of death unknown
Kearns (navigator) -- Died in vicinity of crash site
Plambeck (radar navigator) -- Died during vivisection experiment
Johnson (left gunner) -- Died in vicinity of crash site
Ponczka (engineer) -- Died during vivisection experiment
Williams (radio operator) -- Died during vivisection experiment
Czarnecki (tail gunner) -- Died during vivisection experiment
Oeinck (right gunner) -- Died in vicinity of crash site
Colehower (nose gunner) -- Died during vivisection experiment

133 posted on 10/01/2002 6:08:48 AM PDT by wimpycat
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To: wimpycat
You'll get no argument out of me that the men of Unit 741 were criminals and deserved to hang.

If I had the time though, I would post the names of the nearly 125,000 old men, women and children who died in March of 1945 due to the Tokyo fire bombing perpetrated by the USAAF. War crime, pure and simple, yet no one was held accountable.

134 posted on 10/01/2002 8:45:56 AM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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To: wimpycat
Of all the Japanese Americans whose exploits are worthy of recognition, but nooooooooooo, you had to go and pick an Imperial Japanese flyboy, for heaven's sake.

Bravery isn't limited to the exploits of the white race my friend. The history of the IJN is replete with many of their pilots knowingly making one-way trips. Unfortunately, there isn't a comperable situation in the USAAF or the USN.

135 posted on 10/01/2002 8:48:45 AM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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To: Kobyashi1942
Nice race hustling, but it doesn't wash. Wimpycat clearly stated that you could find a number of Japanese Americans who distinguished themselves in combat for our country for our country, but chose not to, yet you still claim she's focused on white race issues.

I find it interesting that you are taking the Axis side here.

Here you could be extolling the work of the Tuskegee airmen, but aren't. You could be extolling the virtues of the code talkers, but areen't. You coud be extolling the virtues of teh red ball express, but aren't.

For that matter, you could still identify with the person you chose, or with Admiral Yamamoto's virtues as a planner and a leader, while still remaining a good American, but you choose to snipe at every turn.

Why is that? Please tell me.

136 posted on 10/01/2002 10:54:28 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Here you could be extolling the work of the Tuskegee airmen, but aren't. You could be extolling the virtues of the code talkers, but areen't. You coud be extolling the virtues of teh red ball express, but aren't.

Please, give me a brake. None of these people faced the dangers or knowledge that they were facing one-way flights like Lt. Kobyashi or the Kamikaze pilots knew they were taking.

I notice you take a pass on defending the war crimes of the Allied powers during and after the war. If I were you, I also would take a pass, but I'd wouldn't dodge the issue like you are so adroitly doing.

137 posted on 10/01/2002 11:12:36 AM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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To: Kobyashi1942
Sigh. I never believed I'd have to defend the WWII actions of the allies on FR.

Tokyo, the capital, was the industrial and political heart of Japan.

Despite setback after setback, the Empire fought to hang on to every island possible (and we won't mention how many deaths were inflicted on the civilian population of the PI during normal garrisoning duties).

As a result, the bombings had to touch the civilian population, to demoralize it, and make it harder to continue perpetrationg the war - and as luck would have it, that population lived in residential areas built primarily of wood products.

So we bombed, and bombed, and bombed some more - and still the population held on - mainly because of the conditioning they had received, and not so much out of an innate bravery.

You want to say that the war should have been prosecuted differently, or that the US should have left it alone? Do you think Imperial Japan would have let the PI become independent in 1948? What about the other Pacific nations?

138 posted on 10/01/2002 11:21:03 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Kobyashi1942
Japanese Americans are white?
139 posted on 10/01/2002 12:16:14 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
As a result, the bombings had to touch the civilian population, to demoralize it, and make it harder to continue perpetrationg the war - and as luck would have it, that population lived in residential areas built primarily of wood products.

Wrong answer, Mr. "History Major". The bombing of Tokyo wasn't targeted at any specific industry, like the bombing of Schwienfurt was, the munitions dropped on Tokyo were specifically aimed at immmolating the population, not the business that help the Japanese war industry. It was a Fire bombing, designed to kill Japanese civilians, not military targets. War crime, pure plain and simple.

Obviously you are the product of a government school that has been indoctrinated in "victors revisionism". LeMay and Harris got their "justice" when they passed into the after life my friend.

140 posted on 10/01/2002 1:12:33 PM PDT by Kobyashi1942
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