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Job market collapse has people packing
San Francisco Chronicle ^

Posted on 09/22/2002 7:21:38 AM PDT by RCW2001

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:41:01 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Jobless and broke, Bryan Clouse sits among the dwindling possessions in his studio in San Francisco's Fillmore District getting ready to leave what he once thought was a computer nerd's promised land.

In a week, the 35-year-old programmer will load up a rented SUV and say goodbye to the city that has been his home for the past nine years. He will go to live with his grandparents in Brooklyn, Mich., a tiny town of brick storefronts and clapboard houses a few hours west of Detroit. There, with no rent to worry about, he will look for work.


(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: bayarea; jobmarket
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To: nanny
I am sorry these posts make you sick - but the fact is our children are not being educated for the task at hand.

Tell me do American Doctors attend the same schools as American Engineers? Do American Lawyers and Scientist at NASA attend the same schools as American engineers? Why is it that our schools are good enough to produce the finest Doctors, Lawyers and Scientist this world has known yet every one is saying that these very same schools can not produce a decent Engineer? I am just not buying it.

181 posted on 09/22/2002 9:47:48 PM PDT by blueriver
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To: palmer
I agree palmer; you understand how programming works. So do I. Some programmers are talented, some have credentials. When programmers talk about how they know 5 languages I am in awe. But I also know that the best performers in any given language will tend to focus only on that language in part because they're too lazy to learn 5 languages, in part because they feel it's a waste of time, in part because they're busy working in the one language or improving their ability in the one language. A lot of talented programmers decline to spend the time and effort to get 'certified' because they see no value in it. A lot of talented programmers didn't major in computer related stuff. A lot of talented programmers refuse to go to college if they can avoid it. A lot of them would just as soon go to the local state university even if they could get into an ivy league school. H1b is a system that allows the IT managers (who are always credentialed and without talent) and who generally hate the talented cowboys in the first place, to select from among a lot of credentialed people and thus push that talented cowboy aside. But it is the talented cowboy who made america the #1 software nation in the world by far. Government interference into markets can really screw things up. I thought the republicans knew that. H1b has taught me that they don't. I'm a talented cowboy who didn't even start in the programming trade until after I was 35 and I am 100% self-taught. I know what I'm talking about and I recognize that you understand these industry dynamics also.

Of course ideally a person should have both talent and credentials and great work ethic. Those guys are VERY valuable, but also very rare. My whole point is that h1b is screwing with the system in a way that can be very negative. Talented cowboys are being pushed out. Wages are lower yes with h1b, but it is not clear that we'll be better off with this. Talented cowboys hit home runs especially when they know they get paid a lot for it. How will lower wages hit home runs? It is home runs that create a situation where you have advantages in the market and can make wholesale reductions in the amount of work needed to be done to get the job done.

182 posted on 09/22/2002 9:49:46 PM PDT by Red Jones
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To: blueriver
doctors and lawyers deal with people, they need great social and language skills, obviously an American will have an advantage over any foreigner in those fields, as for scientist, have you seen how many scientists are actually American?
183 posted on 09/22/2002 9:49:46 PM PDT by ComputationalComplexity
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To: ComputationalComplexity
I think that at least the large majority of the nobel prizes in last 20 years for science related achievements have gone to american citizens. These citizens are frequently born in america, but they are also frequently immigrants. But we made these achievements without h1b.
184 posted on 09/22/2002 10:03:04 PM PDT by Red Jones
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To: ComputationalComplexity
doctors and lawyers deal with people

The topic of my reply was with respect to school preparation. The fact is that both Medical School and Law School require a significantly high caliber student. The education system in America is obviously capable of producing students for Medical and Law school. So why is it some how or other not able to produce engineers? Why is it that the same school system that is OK for one profession is somehow completely inadequate for another profession? Please don't tell me Medical school is all about how to be nice to your patients.

185 posted on 09/22/2002 10:10:13 PM PDT by blueriver
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To: blueriver
the problem is math and science, docters and lawyers simply do not have a strong mathematics and physics background. For doctors biology is important but chemistry much less so. The American educational system is lacking in the hard sciences, that is the problem.
186 posted on 09/22/2002 10:13:13 PM PDT by ComputationalComplexity
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To: speekinout
Well, those of us with real engineering degrees are losing our jobs.

I'm lucky. I've been out of the workforce for 7 years while I take care of my children.

Unfortunately, lots of my old co-workers are losing their jobs. These are highly skilled engineers with 15-20 years of work experience.

The H1B workers need to go first because they are not Americans. Our country needs to take care of our own first. Otherwise, other countries will take over economically and politically.
187 posted on 09/22/2002 10:22:16 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: ComputationalComplexity
That's the opposite of what I saw. The Indian engineers had code that worked, but it was usually spaghetti code and undocumented. If you needed to change it for some reason, good luck.
188 posted on 09/22/2002 10:25:10 PM PDT by luckystarmom
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To: MarMema
Hi MarMema, thanks for the ping. We do have the highest unemployment rate here in WA, but I think it's more than an outcome of 9-11. It is democRAT taxes, taxes, taxes, regulations, studies, government interference... (with help from the RINOS)
Long before the terrorist murderers attacked out country from without - the rats have been dismantling it from the inside. Boeing has left and the Seattlites just taxed themselves a new big one. And the B&O tax has driven many a small business OUT of business. You can't hire who you want or fire who you want. People who do business in WA must have real strength.
189 posted on 09/22/2002 10:27:18 PM PDT by Libertina
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To: blueriver
"Why is it that our schools are good enough to produce the finest Doctors, Lawyers and Scientist this world has known yet every one is saying that these very same schools can not produce a decent Engineer? I am just not buying it."

Well, I am not totally buying it, I think the overriding factor is cheaper labor. Now my point was if, in fact as they say, there are no American engineers, it is incumbent upon our educational system to produce them.

Now I do think the American education system is in very bad condition, and it could just so much better.

But, of course, as to doctors, we are importing a lot of those also. To many for my comfort - but that's just me.

As for lawyers - welllllllll------finest, I don't know - largest number - without a doubt.

190 posted on 09/22/2002 10:30:31 PM PDT by nanny
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To: ComputationalComplexity
"for a hi-tech worker it really depends, a skilled engineer can take anywhere from 4-10 years to train, a chicken herder, I'm not that sure about."

Having been a 'chick herder' of my own small herd and having processed them myself, I can tell you, some people are better at it than others. Personally, I am rather slow. But mostly it takes a strong back, a strong stomach and of course, I wanted chicken in my freezer.

191 posted on 09/22/2002 10:38:30 PM PDT by nanny
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To: blueriver
"No profession is immune with the exception of doctors, layers, and government officials."

I haven't been in many hospitals, but it seems we are already importing doctors (2 of the 3 stopped in Fla were not citizens). Also, when my stepfather was alive and going to the VA hospital, that was about all he had. One had to draw us a diagram to show us my stepdad's problem because he couldn't speak English.

As for lawyers - when foreign lawyers begin coming over here and undercutting the American lawyers, something might get done. At least, you will hear some complaints.

192 posted on 09/22/2002 10:47:04 PM PDT by nanny
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To: rightofrush
"THIS POST MAKES ME SICK. "

This post was aimed at me and as I replied, teachers are not the sole component of the education system.

Both of you confirmed my point, our educational system is sorely lacking and getting angry and defensive when someone speaks the truth is not going to help.

193 posted on 09/22/2002 11:01:10 PM PDT by nanny
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To: VOA
San Francisco was a wonderful place in 1970. Alioto's. Ghirardelli Square. Golden Gate Park. One of the few unpleasant experiences I had there was at a hotel in Chinatown. I tried to check in and the Oriental clerk said "no rooms!" I could tell that they had rooms, that wasn't the problem. I later realized the creep could have been thinking "short hair! you maybe like killing Asians, eh?"
194 posted on 09/22/2002 11:02:31 PM PDT by 185JHP
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To: Red Jones
I totally agree with you regarding the H1B. I think it should be stopped and now.

As far as the education in this country, it does need improvement. There is just no doubt about it. I believe without a doubt, Americans can do the work and can be educated to do the work, but as long as the folks in education take any criticism personally, and as long as we continue to import cheap labor, there will be nothing done, about either situation.

195 posted on 09/22/2002 11:08:25 PM PDT by nanny
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To: RCW2001
Southard says it was tough for him to leave California. In Indiana, he hates the hot weather and misses the Bay Area's tolerance, openness and liberal political climate. "I'm very homesick," he said. "It's great to reconnect to Indiana, but sometimes you feel like a Martian."

Good -- I wish more liberals would feel like Martians because of their stupid views!

196 posted on 09/23/2002 2:11:54 AM PDT by NYCVirago
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To: blueriver
"A statistical sampling involving one college in one engineering discipline - with that you think you have the data to broad stroke the entire nation of American engineers in every discipline?"

With the additional evidence of having gotten the exact same opinion from other professionals in other engineering and science disciplines, plus my own personal observations in chemistry, YES. Go talk to some professors off the record at any major university, and they will tell you exactly the same thing--on average, the quality of American students in engineering and science has gone down drastically. Oh, I'm sure there are pockets of excellence that still exist (CalTech) that get the top 0.01% of students, but overall the trend is and has been DOWN for years.

Yer beatin' a dead horse.

197 posted on 09/23/2002 3:12:48 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Red Jones
People also gotto realize, in India they identify talented people and nurture them. Our school systems don't do that. You get a good education in america if you live in an upper income community and we never take talented people and put them into special programs like they do in India. That un-democratic and un-pc impulse grates against our educational establishment. So, when Indians come over here to fill jobs we are frequently seeing the elite of India competing against run-of-the-mill americans. Many of america's talented people who have aptitude for high level high-tech simply slip through the fingers of our educational system while in India they don't let that happen.

Our present K-12 school system is actively hostile to achievement by the talented.

I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Nice middle-class school district. I taught my eldest daughter to read before she went into Kindergarden. By 2nd grade she knew long division and simple algebra. Was the school supportive? They called my wife in for a conference. They told her they wanted her to convince me to stop doing advanced stuff with my daughter because she was getting to be too bored in her regular classes My response was to pull her out and homeschool her

The focus of the US school system is on getting the lowest achievers up to minimum standards. They don't care about high-achievement at all, except in certain upscale private schools. The socialists want equality, of the lowest common denominator

198 posted on 09/23/2002 3:56:22 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: speekinout; MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
American students are lazy these days. They're trained that way from elementary school on. Their self-esteem is more important than their knowledge

They are lazy because they are not hungry.

In Third-World countries, the facts of life are that if you have no marketable skills, you starve. And I don't mean this figuratively -- these countries are not wealthy enough for a welfare safety net.

The parents of the 50's and 60's were people who grew up in the 30's, when life could get really ugly if you didn't have the skills to compete. If we had a situation where failure to get your kids educated enough to compete meant that the kids would live in Third-World-style poverty, and the parents would starve to death in old age, you would see a lot more achievement.

199 posted on 09/23/2002 4:15:15 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor
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To: Red Jones
You are right about H1B being government interference. My experience working with them was that they desperately wanted to stay (especially if from Red China) and desperately wanted to be told what to do. Part of my job to tell them what to do at the expense of my own productivity. I got the sense they thought they were entitled to be micromanaged the way they would be back in their home countries.

Some software can be built this way (rigid requirements, top down design), much cannot. Managers can't seem to tell the difference, they look at the H1B working hard just to learn English and emulate American programmers and think that's productive and they are helping the world. A number of managers are from the same ethnic groups which makes it even worse.

200 posted on 09/23/2002 4:46:56 AM PDT by palmer
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