THEY JUST WON'T GET IT

New York Post ^ | 9/10/02 | DAVID GELERNTER

[ImpBill]

Nice find and a refreshing voice from academia. I opt for the hatred mode. I could care less why the sick bastards attacked us but I do know why ... ISLAM in it's fundamental core is a sick philosophy bent upon world domination or destruction.

KILL EM ALL!!

[MSSC6644]

If anyone wants to understand, well, at least get some idea of, what we're dealing with, I recommend two books: The Haj by Leon Uris and Whirlwind by James Clavell. They are novels, easy to read, but each sets out very clearly the evil that guides these cultures. And of course, they defy true understanding; we in the west have no real point of reference - I doubt even Hitler would have slaughtered his own children, now Stalin, that's another thing.

[kattracks]

Thank you, be my guest. :o)

[7thson]

Very good post.

A HANDSHAKE doesn't mean "I love you," it means "I accept you." By saying what he did, the professor offered the terrorists a metaphorical handshake.

He might say, "But I didn't mean to do that; it's just that I was too thick or dumb or obtuse to grasp what I was saying." (Possibly he wouldn't use exactly those words.)

Fine, professor; but it looks as if a figurative handshake is exactly what you intended, and what counts in this world is what you say, not what you intended to say.

From a different viewpoint: If you do business with a man, you are stamping him with your personal seal of approval. This "personal seal" doesn't assert much - no one expects you to conduct a detailed investigation beforehand - but it does tell the world that, so far as you know, the fellow is a minimally decent human being.

Honorable people do not invite impenitent murderers to lunch, or buy used cars from them.

What was the message we - the United States of America - sent the world when Clinton was elected President - twice!!! I think we showed the world a wall with no mortar, and evil ba****ds such as Bin Laden and Saddam have taken advantage of the situation.

The talk show people - Rush, Hannity, et al; are making a big deal about what Clinton said in 1998 about Iraq and the support he got from DemoRATs and what GW is saying today and the non-support he is getting from DemoRATs. What I have not heard anyone say is that the reason the Dems supported Clinton in 1998 is that they knew he was full of s**t. They knew he would do nothing. And the world knew it then, also. That is why the world was not concerned back then. They are concerned now, because they know that GW is going to do something.

[John O]

Some Christians will say that, although it is natural to hate a man who murdered your sister, you must overcome that hatred. But there is a big difference between having an emotion and then - by dint of struggle or faith - overcoming it and never having had it at all.

And those so called Christians would be wrong, The bible commands us to hate evil. Now we are also commanded to forgive them. And we must indeed forgive them. That forgiveness however does not prevent us from dispensing justice. Forgiveness has nothing to do with justice. I have already forgiven the islamikazis. I also cry out to God for justice to be done (first save them and then remove them from this world. If they refuse to be saved then just remove them)

God Save America (Please)

[John O]

HOWEVER, UNDERSTANDING IS FAR BETTER THAN IGNORANCE OR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING.

If someone attacks me I already understand everything about them that I need to know. They are no longer qualified to live on this planet. Their motivation doesn't matter (who cares what a dead enemy thinks)

GSA(P)

[John O]

Well said and so true.

GSA(P)

[John O]

We should acquire knowledge of the Islamists and about their culture for the purposes of assessing their weaknesses and destroying them.

While I would agree with you if this was a limited engagement I have to disagree in these circumstances. This war will end with either the death of the west or the death of islam as a viable religion/belief system. There will be no islamics at the end of it. They will either have converted or died. While I'd prefer them to convert I'd still be content if they just died.

If you are aiming to eradicate a culture you don't need to understand the culture, you just need to kill (or change) all it's adherents

GSA(P)

[MadIvan]

If you are aiming to eradicate a culture you don't need to understand the culture, you just need to kill (or change) all it's adherents

As the USSR showed, it's sometimes useful to know their culture to assist its implosion. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[iconoclast]

Nice find and a refreshing voice from academia.

Nice find, indeed!

Gelernter is as good in his own way as Steyn. The only reason we don't see more of him here is that he is a teacher first and secondarily a writer.

He has a unique story of his own. He's worth looking up.

[John O]

As the USSR showed, it's sometimes useful to know their culture to assist its implosion. ;)

This is true, however, the culture in the USSR had something of value to contribute to the world (the people's belief system was basically good but the leadership and government system was corrupt). I see no value whatsoever in the islamic culture (the people's belief system is evil and the leadership is evil). The islamics can either abandon the culture and let it die or die with it. I don't need to understand someone to drop a bomb on them.

GSA(P)

[MadIvan]

I see no value whatsoever in the islamic culture (the people's belief system is evil and the leadership is evil). The islamics can either abandon the culture and let it die or die with it. I don't need to understand someone to drop a bomb on them.

No, but if you want to provoke a revolution, like would be the intelligent strategy in Iran, then it becomes very useful.

Regards, Ivan

[Quix]

I've been forced to realize with increasing weight the thunderous emphasis God places on "VENGEANCE IS MINE, says The Lord."

I don't have any big problem with construing it that God will use the U.S. to discipline Iraq. . . . and the resulting furor to discipline the U.S.

I don't have any big problem with appropriate governments of God fearing people putting evil in it's place according to God's leading. Arrogance and taking vengeance unduly unto ourselves are both very hazardous. No rational person would choose the results of acting in God's place without HIS permission and authority. The consequences are likely to be far worse than you can imagine.

But mostly I was just trying to say I prefer understanding compared to lack of understanding; knowledge to lack of knowledge. I may understand why my child misbehaved. The child may still need stern discipline.

Actually, in terms of parents, in virtually all cases, I think a parent is amiss to discipline a child without understanding. Life and death/bodily harm situations could be exceptions.

I'm historically about as much of a hawk as you'll find in the class of 1965. I like to think I'm much wiser about my hawkishness than I was 37 years ago.

I still believe that at some point, there's no arguing with evil. It has to be obliterated. I don't think human methods are likely to obliterate much evil--perhaps exterminate some of it's methods and some of it's henchmen--but mostly we just tend to show the capacity to spread it around a lot. Still, at times, it's important to exterminate some of it's methods and henchmen in some locales.

My UN retiree friend in Hawaii. His organization is trying to bring about world peace. Admirable goal for someone claiming to be a Christian [since he doesn't see Christ Jesus as the only door I don't think much of his claim to be a Christian but anyway]. But he's working with folk who I believe clearly are involved in setting the stage for satan's man who will WAGE WAR WITH PEACE.

Peace is a grand goal. Blessed are the peace makers. Would I want to work to set supreme evil in place under the charade of a false peace. I hope NOT!

Stomping Iraq, to my mind is a fitting goal. I believe they have ALREADY deployed and used weapons of mass destruction on the U.S. probably the Nile virus for example. I believe they were up to their tutu's involved with Al Q. I believe we should have stomped them 12 SEP 2001 VERY DEVASTATINGLY.

But the consequences of stomping them are likely to be less than ideal. The consequences of the NWO mandated peace will be very less than ideal.

Given such paradoxes and complexities, UNDERSTANDING ought to be a constant companion. Choosing ignorance or willful blindness is likely to be deadly, at least costly.

Maybe I've now been clearer, maybe I've been more obtuse. I hope the former.

[Quix]

Oh, I wouldn't want to expend undue energy or bother trying to understand all the factors contributing to mad dog Jihad. The basics are clear enough and don't require a lot of intense thought much less investigation.

But I wouldn't want to be part of mindless, knee-jerk, arrogant retaliation, either. We don't need to stoop to their level to level their capital.

[John O]

No, but if you want to provoke a revolution, like would be the intelligent strategy in Iran, then it becomes very useful.

I guess I can agree with you if you want to provoke a revolution (as I believe our President does). I would prefer wiping every last living being out of that land and starting over. The enemy cannot attack when the last enemy is dead (men, women, children, pets, distant relatives etc. They have no right to exist once they are guilty of attacking us.)

God Save America (Please)

[Sabertooth]

Even if sister was murdered--understanding could afford more peace and quasi-closure than lack of understanding gnawing endlessly at one's heart, mind and soul.

Closure is only as secure as the cell-door or coffin-lid of the perpetrator.

Should Gelernter shake hands with the man who maimed him, the Unabomber? Should he try to understand him?

[Quix]

Welllllll, to argue the other side for a bit. . .

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.

I say this having been wronged incalculably by my closest bosom Christian Brothers. . . . as well as many others over the years!

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.

I'm happy to let God deal with vengeance.

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.

I would PREFER that the Brothers turned enemies would understand themselves and me better. But I can't MAKE that happen.

I'm willing to do what I can to trust God's promises to work it all out; restore; advance broken relationships.

I'm happy to learn more about Christ's suffering, brokenness and humility in however a small mortal part as best I'm able by His Grace to learn.

I could imagine killing someone who was slaughtering innocents or people close to me. But on the whole, I hate violence and want nothing to do with it. As a teen, I had a hard time killing deer for needed food.

But I don't mind paying tax dollars to stomp Saddddammmnn.

I've known of counselees who agonized for YEARS over WHY somone mangled or murdered or whatever their loved one. Understanding would have at least enabled them to have slept better at nights. Wouldn't have resurrected their loved one. Wouldn't have turned the criminal into a friend. But they would have had a TYPE and MEASURE of closure that would have afforded them more release from the pain than they'd yet achieved.

Life has plenty of puzzles and complexities as well as paradoxes. Understanding seems to be a far better way to navigate and perceive them than ignorance.

[gunshy]

If a group of ultra right wing conservative militia types were to go onto the campi of this country and kill 3000 or so of these liberal professors, would the liberals rush to try and understand why those who did it hated them so?. I think not.

[Quix]

I agree it's not just a trade dispute.

And, I believe understanding is important IN PART to be better forewarned, protected AS WELL AS to better administer discipline--even terminal discipline when that's called for, as I BELIEVE IT IS IN THIS SITUATION.

Oh, I'm a shrink so understanding human behavior is probably a passion of mine. . . virtually regardless.

Understanding evil? I believe it's basically pride. Satan wanted to be God or at least as God. God said NO! God was and is and always will be BIGGER. God won. God is winning. God will always win. Satan is not got's negative equal. Satan is a troublesome gnat useful for affording a robust free will oriented boot camp to train future rulers for endless ages and countless galaxies, evidently.

I think basically--evil = pride gone to seed.

[Sabertooth]

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.

Does God forgive the unrepentant? Should we?

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.

Your forgiveness holds no such power over evil.
You can not change hearts.

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.

I don't need to forgive my enemies to let go of bitterness or resentment. I simply give those emotions over to God and let Him worry about it

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.

Scripturally unfounded.

Governments are placed over men with divine authority to uphold justice.

That they might not always do so changes nothing, God keeps no prisons in this life.