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THEY JUST WON'T GET IT
New York Post ^ | 9/10/02 | DAVID GELERNTER

Posted on 09/10/2002 1:41:04 AM PDT by kattracks

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:08:26 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: iconoclast; ImpBill; kattracks; Pokey78
He has a unique story of his own. He's worth looking up.

David Gelernter does indeed have a remarkable story. He's the author of "Drawing Life: Surviving the Unabomber." On June 24, 1993 he opened a package that exploded and nearly killed him. He lost most of his right hand and suffered other serious physical damage.

The book is a very personal memoir about his recovery and journey of personal rediscovery. It contains a strong message about the triviality of current American culture. "We are so busy peeking pruriently into the twisted minds of madmen tht we have forgotten that acts of violence are not significant because they tickle our bloodlust, but because they force us to rethink our priorities," he writes.

No one paid much attention to David's tragedy at the time, and when the Unabomber was arrested the Leftist media sent us the message that he was simply an idealist gone bad (you could make the same argument about Lenin but they didn't mention that). This book is a very good read and more than usually significant in light of September 11, 2001. America needs to rethink its priorities the same way David did.

41 posted on 09/10/2002 10:07:34 AM PDT by Bernard Marx
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To: Sabertooth
How can I be THAT far from you. Don't think I am.
-----

FORGIVENESS is essential for ME, for my being forgiven.
Does God forgive the unrepentant? Should we?

Q: Actually, I DO believe that I must forgive ALL if I wish to be forgiven. God is the judge. Doesn't mean I become blind and silly about it. There is a time for Christians to judge behavior etc. And even a time to execute GOD'S judgement on the unrepentant--but WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT GOD IS INSTRUCTING US TO DO SUCH. . . and that we have that POSITION AND AUTHORITY GIVEN OF HIM IN THE SITUATION, IMHO.

AND, I BELIEVE STRONGLY, the power to turn an enemy into a friend is a greater power than the power to destroy that enemy by obliterating him.
Your forgiveness holds no such power over evil.
You can not change hearts.

Q: In principle, I'd go a long ways toward agreeing that my forgiveness in and of itself holds no power over evil.

Q: HOWEVER, RELATIONALLY AND FUNCTIONALLY, I'VE DISCOVERED THAT'S NOT QUITE AS TRUE AS YOU MIGHT THINK--IN THE *CONTEXT* OF PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS. Forgiveness can be INCREDIBLY POWERFUL AND AN INCREDIBLY POTENT CHANNEL FOR HOLY SPIRIT TO WORK THROUGH. AGREED--ONLY HE CHANGES HEARTS.

I don't want the poison of bitterness or resentment. It's unhealthy to ME.
I don't need to forgive my enemies to let go of bitterness or resentment. I simply give those emotions over to God and let Him worry about it

Q: I believe even saying The Lord's Prayer authentically requires me to FORGIVE ALL--if I want ALL forgiveness.

I'm happy to let God deal with discipline.
Scripturally unfounded.

Q: God insists that VENGEANCE IS HIS AND HIS ALONE. That's what I was speaking to. It's NOT my place to decide on my own sensibilities to go out and obliterate Iraq. IF I'm in the appropriate governmental position and am convinced God is directing me to do so--fine. No problem per se.

Governments are placed over men with divine authority to uphold justice.

That they might not always do so changes nothing, God keeps no prisons in this life.

Q: But He sure used an Egyptian prison to train and purify Joseph.

42 posted on 09/10/2002 10:13:16 AM PDT by Quix
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To: Quix
Actually, I DO believe that I must forgive ALL if I wish to be forgiven.

Off-topic. Gelernter and I are talking about the unrepentant.

I believe even saying The Lord's Prayer authentically requires me to FORGIVE ALL--if I want ALL forgiveness.

No, inherent in the lines, "Forgive us our tresspasses, as we forgive those who tresspass against us," is the repentance of the one saying the prayer. We are not charged to forgive all, only those who have tresspassed against us and sincerely repented.

Again, does God forgive all, or only the repentant?




43 posted on 09/10/2002 10:25:43 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Sabertooth
Does God forgive all or only the repentant.

OH I DEFINITELY BELIEVE THAT REPENTANCE IS CRUCIAL, ESSENTIAL AT GOD'S LEVEL.

I still believe HE asks of Me at my level of awareness, understanding, finiteness to forgive all and release the offenders to Him. . . . if judgement, His business; if Forgiveness at His level, His business.

There's even plenty of teaching around that if we don't, we somehow to SOME degree limit God's dealings with the offender by tying the offender up in our unforgiveness. This, of course, regarding those one is in relationship or have been in relationship with.

I know that in terms of psychological and spiritual health, this has been essential for me and for the more spiritual people I've known.
44 posted on 09/10/2002 11:30:41 AM PDT by Quix
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To: Sabertooth
The prayer is NOT written:

"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us who have repented."

And I personally don't believe it's implied.

45 posted on 09/10/2002 11:33:07 AM PDT by Quix
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To: Sabertooth
I personally believe, think that between God and I--whether I'm willing to forgive ALL and TRUST ALL to God is an issue of my Trusting God between He and I.

And on that score, HE INSISTS that I TRUST HIM regardless.

I prefer to choose to do that as well as I'm able, by His Grace to do so.
46 posted on 09/10/2002 11:34:55 AM PDT by Quix
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To: Sabertooth
I think inherent in the harboring unforgiveness--even against the unrepentant is the LACK OF TRUSTING GOD TO DEAL WITH THE SCOUNDRAL and clinging to OUR OWN RIGHTS [which we are to have surrendered to Christ] to punish the scoundral according to our 100% awareness of 100% of the facts [NOT!] and our 100% perfect anger [NOT!] and our 100% perfect methods, manner, timing and degree of disciplne, retribution etc. [NOT!].

God says--NO! None of that--That's my turf. I alone have perfect anger. I alone have perfect knowledge. I alone can execute perfect vengeance. It is poison you must not touch except as I place a task and means in your hands.

Your duty, health and even your forgiveness is to be utterly forgiving. Christ said of the Pharisees while on the Cross--Father--forgive them for they know not what they do.

The pharisees were unrepentant. I suspect The Father did. Whether the Father did or not, that was Christ's attitude and choice. I choose to follow Him in matters of Forgiveness and everything else I can follow Him in.
47 posted on 09/10/2002 11:42:33 AM PDT by Quix
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To: Quix
The prayer is NOT written:

"Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us who have repented."

And I personally don't believe it's implied.

When we pray, "Forgive us our trespasses," we are being repentant for having tresspassed against God.

When we pray, "As we forgive those who have tresspassed against us," we are creating a simile between God's forgiveness and ours. The simile is completed in this way:

As God forgives us our tresspasses when we are repentent, so must we forgive those who have tresspassed against us when they are repentent.

Or, to put it another way, as we forgive those who tresspass against when they are repentent, so do we ask God to forgive us our tresspasses when we are repentent.

The properties of the simile are commutative.




48 posted on 09/10/2002 8:49:01 PM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Sabertooth
I understand your excellent explanation.

Guess it doesn't alter my bias.

I also have a bias against reading even simile's into Scripture.

But your point is reasonable. I just disagree with it.

I do appreciate you making it so patiently.
49 posted on 09/10/2002 9:12:47 PM PDT by Quix
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To: Quix
I also have a bias against reading even simile's into Scripture.

The simile is not read into the Scripture, it is written into it... "Let A be as B."

Didn't Jesus say, "He who has an ear, let him hear," in reference to one of his parables? Aren't all parables simles?

What is the root of your bias?




50 posted on 09/10/2002 9:21:05 PM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: Quix
"IT MAY COST pride, or sensibilities or comfort or a lot of things but understanding is still better than lack of understanding."

What is there, exactly, to understand about cold-blooded killers? Was it necessary to understand Ted Bundy in order to execute him?

Only if understanding these killers will somehow help us apprehend and execute them is the exercise worth the effort.

51 posted on 09/10/2002 9:34:13 PM PDT by okie01
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To: okie01
I've heard countless victims agonizingly wail "IF ONLY I COULD UNDERSTAND *WHY* HE DID THIS TO MY PRECIOUS MARY . . ." The senselessness to a lot of the evil acts was a constant stabbing pain to them.

Certainly we don't need to know a lot to have sufficient reason to execute. But it would be nice to know enough to prevent. . . among other things.
52 posted on 09/10/2002 10:22:57 PM PDT by Quix
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To: Sabertooth
fair enough. . . at least to a point.

root of my bias?

Not sure. . . My best sense is that it's from LOTS of fiery furnace grinding, being powdered and blown to the 4 winds and reconstituted more in His Image . . . especially around the issue of Forgiveness. A prophet sort that i have had a lot of respect for once told a friend of mine that God told him I knew more about forgiveness than anyone on the planet. I certainly didn't believe him. Given what's happened since and his own ignorance on the subject, sometimes I wonder.

I do know it's a keenly important thing to God. I do know I'd much rather err on the side of being overly forgiving instead of less than He might prefer.

Discipline, punishment etc. is an entirely different issue. I'm convinced deep in my soul and bone marrow that Forgiveness is in order human to human in God's eyes all the time--certainly virtually all the time, in every situation. If God ever shows me or insists differently, I think I can hear Him on the topic. Until then, I'll continue this stance on it. It has brought me the most life and peace and also brought a lot of others the most life and peace they've ever experienced. '

I've found that on the human level, Forgiveness is primarily for the forgiving person. . . 2ndarily for the forgiven one.

I've also observed--LOTS of personal experience and observational experience besides--Forgiving another even scoundral is OFTEN followed by God dealing with them MOST SEVERELY. Why hadn't God dealt with them most severely before they were forgiven? I don't have all those answers. But it's a sequence I've seen A LOT.
53 posted on 09/10/2002 10:29:36 PM PDT by Quix
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To: Quix
"The senselessness to a lot of the evil acts was a constant stabbing pain to them...But it would be nice to know enough to prevent. . . among other things"

Cold-blooded murder is, by definition, a senseless crime. Sensible people can never hope to understand the why; we're incapable of conceiving such soulless viciousness.

We can understand, however, that there are such people in the world and deal with them accordingly. Preferably, via removal from the gene pool.

54 posted on 09/11/2002 7:07:23 AM PDT by okie01
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To: okie01
Maybe it is my psych background. Maybe it is the refiner's fires/long dark nights of the soul I've been sieved through more times than I'd like to remember.

But I can understand such despair . . . which tends to be the start--despair, bitterness, resentment. Then satan gets a deep foothold and the person seeks to strike out in vengeance over the perceived causes or even just the scape goats they somehow connect to their despair.

That's one reason I try to be super cautious about vengeance. The line can get very thin between "us & them."

It is not that they are monsters and we are not. It is an issue of degree.

All the research on the Nazi criminals persistently drove home the truth that they are we and we are they.

As the author if a favorite psych book put it in an intro once (blocking on his name at present), It's one thing if the monsters are out there. Even if they are terrible and more than one--we can gangup on them and eventually rid ourselves of them. But if the monster is within us all. That's a more troublesome problem.

God says, since Adam, the monster is in us all. And if we feed him; give vent to him; coddle him; glory in him; do anything but take him to The Cross and crucify him--then we die and often others around us die--whether in bits or wholesale.

I believe our era will see, as the Bible predicts, evil on an unprecedented scale. And the senselessness will be off the scale. It will be as though the most viscious demons of hell have been let loose on the surface for an extended mayhem holiday of destruction and cruelty of unheard of, unimagined proportions. Men's hearts will truly fail them for fear.

God will raise up a standard against such. And He DOES HAVE a "terrrible swift Sword" and it is indeed the Word of God manifested in a diversity of ways.

I believe we will see children younger than 6 and certainly youths of 8-12 doing exploits that would honor generals in coming months and years. . . because their steadfast focus is in The King of Kings and He is Their Champion, Supreme General and Rear Guard.

I think it will be a bit like a more righteous version of who--Shirley Temple--confronting a mass of Hell's Angels and leaving them all dead at each other's hands.

It's possible to understand. But I agree, at some point, there is no point to bothering about understanding. Swat the insects and flush them.

But I still believe we need to be cautious about not contaminating ourselves with their attitudes in the process of getting rid of them.
55 posted on 09/11/2002 10:25:08 AM PDT by Quix
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To: kattracks
Shake this!

56 posted on 09/11/2002 10:28:55 AM PDT by rockfish59
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