Soldiers Report Gun Glitches

Defense Week | September 3, 2002 | By Nathan Hodge

[BushMeister]

If rifling twist doesn't vary the stability of the bullet's flight (keeping the long axis of the bullet coincidental with the direction of flight)--only velocity--why rifle barrels at all? and why throw a football with a spiral?

Of course the barrel must be rifled- for accuracy. But the rifling twist merely affects accuracy, not wounding potential.

The errors on this thread involve the reason for damage in tissue of the target body. Someone shot with a 1/12 twist rifle will not be significantly more injured than someone shot with a 1/7 twist rifle, all other things being equal. It is NOT true that the reason for the surprisingly nasty wounds from M-16 bullets is "tumbling" of the round in the air on the way to the target. Certain bullets, such as the longer M856 tracer round (it's not weight but length that makes stabilization difficult) could not be stabilized by the slower 1/12 twist barrels. That's why the Army went to the 1/7 twist rifles (which had their own problems with barrel wear firing the M193 55-gr. bullet). The longer tracer rounds were "keyholing" or yawing off center in the air, making for terrible accuracy even at close range.

The rifle twist doesn't matter when discussing terminal ballistics, except as far as accuracy is concerned. Bullet velocity and construction do. The M-16 round is particularly lethal when it hits a target at 2700+ feet per second, has a light or moderately thick jacket, and a cannelure, along which the bullet ruptures. US ball ammo (M855, formerly M193) meet these tests. The key is NOT to give up velocity by putting a short barrel on a 5.56mm rifle. I am amazed that our troops are sent into combat with 11" and 16" barrels, especially in terrain like Afghanistan, where long-range engagements are probable.

These concepts have been proved by Dr. Martin Fackler, who was an Army surgeon, and duplicated recently by enterprising civilians who post on AR-15.com.

Fackler

[harpseal]

Sorry I did not accurately state the NJ law. What I know is that anyone from out of state who does get the opportunity to legally carry in NJ has to carry full metal jacketed ammunition.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[kms61]

OTOH if they were using .308's, you'd be reading stories about our guys running out of ammo. There's no perfect solution.

[M.K. Borders]

The 5.56 was greatly derided for it's lack of knock-down power, (basicly a .22) The problem was addresed by making the round less stable so that is would tumble and vear when entering a body. The draw back of course was a much reduced effective range (especially in a cross-wind) and much less penetration (you really could take cover behind a tree, not so with the M-14).

30 years of B--tchin finally convinced someone to get real about marksmanship. The M-16A2 has a thicker barrel, faster twist, and shoots a hotter load. The result? A soldier now with a little practice, can drop that 300meter target.

[harpseal]

There is a point with projectiles when there is sufficient velocity that the projectile will upset when hitting something denser than air. In my limited understanding of the matters of firearms I think one might find the heavier projectile out of the 5.56 X 45 mm rifle does not achieve the same velocity the 55grain bullet achieved. Since e = MV * V and the overall velocity of the bullet is greater with the projectile having less mass and the stabilizing function is to overcome the forces of air working on the projectile and the hydraulic forces in the target and the strength of those forces is proportional to the square of velocity it seems reasonable to presume at higher velocities the bullet may upset.

As I stated I have a very limited knowledge of balistics but this is what I read somewhere.

Flackler was I believe more focused on handgun cartidges not rifle cartridges where the velocities are 2X or 3X handgun velocities.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

[tet68]

Yeah, sad. Nice guy. He was working security out side a licqour store, and got into a scuffle with some wacked out
street drunk, when a guy he had had trouble with the week before pulled up at the light, saw him, got out of his car and started blasting away. He plead selfdefense. Don't know how it all turned out. Oh yes, he was a convicted felon in possession of a firearm so he got at least five.

I carry a .45 with federal Hydrashocks.

[SLB]

I do not normally like to tell "war stories" but this discusion lends itself to this one. Thanksgiving Day morning in 1970. We had just finished clearing the inside of the firebase from a sapper attack. There was one VC left in the wire about 150 or so feet outside the berm. Like a bunch of kids trying for ground hogs, we were shooting at him with M16's and an M60 or two and even a couple of guys were trying with .45's. The first sergeant walked up, grabbed an M79, this was before the fielding of the M203, and popped him with an HE round. End of story.

[tet68]

Berms are good, wire is your friend.

[Squantos]

I really liked the M79 and packed one in our team gear as late as 1996 to have available when we were armed with M1A's and barretts for EOD/SMUD work .

A good grenadier could put an HEDP round in a moving cars window at 200 meters if need be. I've seen it done. Much better weapon that the old M148 or the current M203 IMHO.

Stay Safe !!

[SLB]

You can never have too much wire. The only thing I did not like was replacing it after a duster or quad .50 worked it over.

[R. Scott]

“The "violations" are moronic when using common sense. Napalm, flame throwers, atomic weapons can be used, but not certain ammo? The idea is to kill the enemy, period.”

I guess the ammo ban came into effect before napalm, flame throwers and nukes.
I liked the instructor in basic who taught us the rules of warfare – then went into detail on how to break them. As he was telling us that a sharp edge on the bayonet was illegal, he was sharpening a bayonet – to show us how not to do it.

[jjm2111]

You're right about that one.

[Cogadh na Sith]

US ball ammo (M855, formerly M193) meet these tests. The key is NOT to give up velocity by putting a short barrel on a 5.56mm rifle. I am amazed that our troops are sent into combat with 11" and 16" barrels, especially in terrain like Afghanistan, where long-range engagements are probable.

I agree completely.

[Travis McGee]

Grenades which can be fired through windows and other wall apertures have proved utterly critical in modern urban warfare. The more potent, accurate and rapid firing the better.

[PatrioticAmerican]

The Beretta Vertec, the latest sibling to the M-9, now has a SS barrel, and many REAL NICE upgrades.