California immigrants thrive where little English is spoken

fresnoBee.com State News ^ | September 2, 2002 | SANDRA MARQUEZ

[sweetliberty]

LOS ANGELES (AP) - Ask Odalia Ramirez if she speaks English and the Guatemala-born housewife will tell you "un poquito," or a little bit. But that doesn't limit Ramirez, 40, from getting by in Pico-Union, a predominantly Central American neighborhood where you can eat steamed corn "pupusas" stuffed with meat and cheese, put a down payment on a dream retirement home in El Salvador while doing your grocery shopping and have your taxes prepared by a Spanish-speaking accountant.

[FITZ]

There are a few neighborhoods that still have English spoken in them, the West side, parts of the NE especially around the military base, and parts of the East side. The housing projects of course are the worst because they have no need to ever learn English. The colonias are all around but I'd have to say those are better people but most won't ever learn English. You see people here who immigrated from Mexico over 20 years ago who have never made the effort to learn English and never will. The bilingual programs are filled which means many don't want their kids to learn English either. We also have a very high middle school and high school dropout rate and of course dependence on government programs.

[Ajnin]

If what you say is true then why do we still have these multi-generational enclaves not being able to speak English?

[FITZ]

Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore.

That didn't happen in Canada with Quebec, or in Kosovo where people continue to be divided by ethnic groups.

[kstewskis]

We'd better get after our legislators or soon we will all find ourselves living in a little Mexico. I guess some people are okay with that. I am not.

Sadly, California is already there.

[Dakmar]

I just don't get the concept of bringing in millions of illiterate poor people, many of whom have a deep seated hatred of us and our culture, to do jobs that our homegrown illiterates would be doing if not for all the government hand-outs. Sounds like a recipe for trouble.

[blueriver]

Years ago people were motivated to learn English. Today things have changed. Everything you can do in English you can also do in Spanish. Voting booths are now required to hand out ballots in other languages. That would have never happened years ago. The immigrants of years ago knew that in order for America to survive everyone needed to become Americans and speak English.

[Fiddlstix]

Bump

[Amerigomag]

Ramirez said she wanted to discuss the problem with a school administrator, but she had to wait until one of her older sons could request time off from work to translate for her.

The implication is that her lack of proficiency in English interfered with her communication with school personell. This just didn't happen. It's simply not true.

All, repeat all, California schools were minorities are substanative must employ some bilingial staff within their counciling or administrative structures.

[Roscoe]

Careful, you'll upset the bigots.

[Amerigomag]

Two generations, and the vast majority of them won't even know Spanish anymore

This may well be the case in Katy, Texas today but the assimilation process has broken down in California due to the sheer number of recent immigrants.

For those children of immigrants raised and educated in California during the 1950's through the 1970's your obsevations are substantially true. The spirally numbers of immigrants in the last twenty years in California has interfered with this process. Immigrant children born in California during the 1980's today remain more fluent in their parent's tongue than in English.

They are certainly bilingual but Spanish is the predominant language in the workplace because they deal on a daily basis with the more recent tidal wave of immigrants pouring into California since the 1990s.

[ikka]

You can't become an American citizen without speaking English. So what is she doing here?

Solution: deportation.

[FITZ]

You can't become an American citizen without speaking English. So what is she doing here?

That was an old rule. You can become one very easily by not speaking English. You can have an anchor baby or use other family reunification. You can fake it too by just memorizing the little bit they have you say in English, I know people who brag about doing that.

[glc1173@aol.com]

"The "problem" here is illusory; this is NO DIFFERENT than all the mass immigrations in this nation's past."

Get out of denial. No prior mass immigration in U.S. history involved a contiguous nation with a porous border sending hordes of aliens to the U.S. on an apparently-endless basis! Nor were any large contiguous enclaves speaking primarily another language involved. Nor was staying non-English-fluent an option; there just wasn't a Univision or government services here in your ancestor's homeland's language to allow them to not assimilate when they came.

"Chinatowns" weren't contiguous to China, nor "Little Italys" to Italy! Also very important, prior mass immigrations just didn't last long - so those who came could be assimilated; now, even if the individual Mexican arriving in Lost Angeles might assimilate, the community he's part of just won't - as hordes of additional Mexicans arrive daily with no foreseeable end.

Mass immigration in the 1920s meant large numbers of people - but from many different homelands; it thus lacked any potential to form city-wide Kosovos, much less broad regional ones.

IMMIGRATION resource library: public-health facts, court decisions, local INS numbers!

[Amerigomag]

Careful, you'll upset the bigots

I assume this fellow's attitudes would also classify as bigotry:

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." -- Thomas Jefferson

Appears substantilally to represent the views of this forum.

Wonder where I found this quote? Couldn't have been on your personal page could it? Naw.

[Fishrrman]

Dakmar wrote:
"I just don't get the concept of bringing in millions of illiterate poor people, many of whom have a deep seated hatred of us and our culture, to do jobs that our homegrown illiterates would be doing if not for all the government hand-outs. Sounds like a recipe for trouble."

This reminds me of a one-liner I once heard about the black/white race issue in America:
"We should have picked our own cotton."

To paraphrase: "We should be doing our _own_ housekeeping chores."

Cheers!
- John

[FreedomFriend]

I drove into El Paso via US 62/180, and the northeastern side, near the military base, did appear mostly English. In fact, I saw a sizeable number of "Anglos" in that section of town. The shopping areas weren't all that bad either, and new housing was very cheap. A new house for $70,000? You can't beat that.

[FreedomFriend]

I suppose that would be the east/northeast side of town.

[FreedomFriend]

I suppose that you support balkanization and bigotry of American culture?

[Roscoe]

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." -- Thomas Jefferson

And there are bigots who would dishonestly contend that all immigrants fit that profile. Thanks for the example.

[Dakmar]

California and Texas are quite a bit different culturally, as well. I doubt you will hear anyone in Texas (outside of Universites, Democratic Party operatives, and Fortune 500 HR personnel) use phrases like "celebrating diversity" or "multicultural" in any sense other than derogatory.