AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL ALIENS? (a question for Freepers)

August 22nd, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

This is a vanity post, let's get that straight from the start.

Perhaps the most vain aspect of it is the conceit that it might stay on topic, but I'm going to give it a whirl.

One of the more contentious species of threads encountered on Free Republic are those dealing with the subject of America's immigration policy, particularly with regard to the Illegal Aliens currently in our country. According a range of reasonable sources, the estimates of their numbers here currently here range from six to thirteen million. Whatever the actual count, there are quite a few people now in violation of American immigration law.

One subtopic that inevitably arises is the question of Amnesty:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

That's the question I'd like to put forward to the members of Free Republic.

Almost as inevitably on threads dealing with this subject, flame wars erupt. It's not my purpose to instigate another round of that, they're rather predictable. So I'd like to ask that your comments, if you're inclined to share them, focus on the big picture of American immigration policy, with particular attention to the subject of Amnesty. I'm not interested in the stock and gratuitous divisiveness of race-baiting or referring to the President as "Jorge," or anything of that nature from any quarter. It achieves nothing, it's sulphurous methane heat with no light shed.

I'd also like to avoid ad hominem ambushes. I'm genuinely interested in learning the collective feelings of Free Republic members on this subject. If you're gonna post, I'd like to ask that you ante up with your opinion on the question at hand before engaging the discussion with others. No taking potshots from the obscurity of the sidelines. I'll post my opinion below at #1.

Fair enough?

So, once again, here's the question:

Should all or some portion of the Illegal Aliens be granted an Amnesty and be thereby allowed to change their status and acquire legal residence in the United States?

[Twodees]

Based on your posts here over the past year, you've made it clear you're not much of a friend of America.

Nonsense. I'm a patriotic American. You confuse politicians with America. I'm no friend of crooked career politicians who ignore the Constitution they swore an oath to preserve. The government isn't America. In fact, the way it is now, it isn't even American.

I would be happy to trade you for 2 or 3 hard working immigrants. This country would indeed be a better place.

I'm sure you would be. Thanks for illustrating perfectly the mindset behind this strategy of allowing such a massive invasion. If patriotic Americans can be replaced with ignorant, illiterate peasants from a socialist hellhole, the politicians who want to dismantle our experiment in liberty will have the perfect demographic for doing so.

[hchutch]

First of all, I do want the problem solved. You're acting like a petulant child because it is not WHAT you want WHEN you want it.

Second of all, I dispute the notion that my opinions would lead to the death of America. I take great offense at that, as well as your description of another poster's opinion (VA Advogado) who disagreed with your positions as "rabid anti-Americanism", although I think VA Advogado was a little too quick with the beanball at Sabertooth - but based on your conduct on the two threads I've followed in the last 24 hours, I can certainly understand how someone might end up disliking you.

I'd expect those tactics from one of those PC police on a college campus, NOT at a conservative forum where the discussion is supposed to be about ideas. In my opinion, you're getting close to the line on some of these posts.

[4Freedom]

"Lastly, do you ever get the feeling that the 'open borders advocates' don't wish to have the problem solved and, thus, they claim that deportation isn't a workable solution."

All the time.

Saber has a thread he calls 'They Will Deport Themselves'. The 'open borders advocates' have all seen it and ignore it.

I've had to endure their incessant manipulation of the numbers of troops it would take to guard our borders and Coast Guard forces to protect or coasts.

Their assertions are ridiculous. They always arrive at the same conclusion using as convoluted a logic as is necessary. Everything's impossible.

We can't stop illegal immigration.

We can't guard our own borders.

The illegals here can't be deported.

Let's surrender.

I believe they must all be of French descent, no matter what they say.

[hchutch]

First of all, if you knew someone who had extensive experience on an issue that far outweighed your own, you'd ask to find out what you could from that experience. I did that. Or are you saying that my research is not valid because it doesn't meet your pre-conceived notions?

Furthermore, repeating the observations I have received second-hand is different that reporting opinions. If you need to look up the difference between those two words, go to http://www.dictionary.com or http://www.bartleby.com/61/ and look them up.

Furthermore, I'm not a Republican party hotshot - just someone who is pretty active in working to get conservatives elected, and who happens to disagree with you on this issue.

[hchutch]

Hey, you can't bring observations into this! Only scientific polls by Zogby!!

[/sarcasm]

[Razz Barry]

I oppose all Amnesties for Illegals Aliens, in any form.

Copy that. BTTT

[Ajnin]

Of course these people are not exactly pro American either. They love their country and the vast majority of aliens that I have talk to have no interest in becoming an American citizen unless of course it gets them more money. They come to America for money. Pure and simple. They think that money is going to solve all their problems. When I ask these people why they come here, the answers are never freedom, more opportunity, the American Dream, liberty etc.

[Ajnin]

I can remember several of my supervisors telling me about the last Amnesty. There were so many applicants that Border Patrol Agents were enlisted to help with the paper work. Well, the agents started breaking all the illegals that didn't meet the guidelines. Of course, they were verbally reprimanded and told to complete the paperwork on everyone that wanted Amnesty.

[gubamyster]

I personally gain nothing from the flow of illegal immigration. That is, nothing except cheaper hotels, cheaper produce, etc... (the same thing you gain, FWIW).

Please check out this study Immigration from Mexico conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies. Among many facts you will note the following:

"This reduction in wages for the unskilled has likely reduced prices for consumers by only an estimated .08 to .2 percent in the 1990s. The impact is so small because unskilled labor accounts for only a tiny fraction of total economic output."

AND:

"the lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a negative $55,200."

So, in reality, what you are gaining is a huge black hole into which your tax dollars are flowing.

[MistrX]

What you are suggesting in effect, negates our borders. If maids and gardeners can sneak into our country, so can terrorists. Many immigrants are honest, hardworking people in search of a better life. But many come here ready to drop a baby who then becomes an American citizen who is then joined by the rest of their family, eager to take advantage of our many social programs to which they have not contributed. Our schools are saddled with the ridiculous task of teaching bi-ligually, and our streets are rampant with gangs of foreign nationals committing crimes. So yes, I say round 'em up and send 'em back.

[Joe Hadenuf]

Excellent response!

[Sabertooth]

Here is my bomb for tonight;

I am for a very limited and very strict amnesty.

Dang, I missed this last night.

I had no idea you were an "open boders," NWO, Bilderberger, Illuminati guy, MI. I'll be waiting with bemused brow after much coffee for you to put my mind at ease.

[Sabertooth]

Pelham: And return to policy we had before Teddy Kennedy's 1965 immigration bill became law.

Torie: So you favor unrestricted Hispanic immigration I see.

Is that what Operation Wetback was?

[hchutch]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but Free Republic has stood for the EFFECTIVE control of illegal immigration.

And it's quite possible for conservatives to have differing ideas on how to EFFECTIVELY control illegal immigration.

I think we need to all calm down, and remember some words from one of the great patriots of his time, Patrick Henry:

"No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the house. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve." (Source: http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/henry.html)

This was the start of a speech he gave on March 23, 1775 - the one he ended with "give me liberty, or give me death!"

Just something I thought ought to be considered in this thread.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

Patrick Henry also said "Give me liberty or give me death". He didn't say give me economic prosperity or give me the southwest.

Come into this country legally or don't bother. And if you're here illegally, then you have to go home. Period.

[hchutch]

Again, though, there is clearly room for people to disagree on this issue in varying degrees, and to do so in a civil manner. I do think, though, that Mr. Henry's first remarks in that speech ought to be heeded by a number of those on both sides of this issue.

I've been guilty of casting aspersions on some Freepers on the other side of this issue than I am, and I should not have done so, and I will refrain from doing so in the future. I hope they will do the same.

[Sabertooth]

For a few. Those with family, no crime, working, etc. They would have to go before a judge or jury and explain their case.

The "few" to who you're referring aren't actually a small number. What you've basically described are the categories of Illegal Aliens who've been targeted by Section 245(i) of the US Immigration and Naturalization Code. While this has currently lapsed, during several previous incarnations from 1994 through early 2001, about a million Illegals sponsored by family or employers were able to "change status" after paying a $1000 fine (fee).

When Section 245(i) came up for renewal this Spring, the Bush Administration's estimate of the number of the next group of Illegals that would be Amnestied was 200,000. The actual number might be a bit more, though I don't think it would have been "in the millions," as some have suggested.

Of the million Illegals Amnestied earlier under Clinton (this is part of his legacy), those who were sponsored by employers counted against our annual immigration caps. That means that a corresponding number of law-abiding applicants waiting to immigrate to America were not admitted. They were penalized so that Illegals could be rewarded. I don't have that precise number, but I think it's reasonable to assume it's a few hundred thousand of the million Amnestied, probably not a majority.

Those Illegals who were sponsored by family members did not count against our immigration caps, they simply busted them, as is the case with the chain immigration of "family reunification."