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Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars
AP Online ^ | 8-21-02 | ROXANA M. POPESCU

Posted on 08/21/2002 7:41:41 PM PDT by mjp

Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars

ROME (August 21, 2002 5:23 p.m. EDT) - Experts on the Shroud of Turin said Wednesday they felt frustrated and betrayed to learn a Swiss textile expert had obtained Vatican approval to test the sacred cloth without involvement from the international scientific community. The shroud is a strip of linen believers say was used to wrap the body of Jesus. Kept in the Cathedral of Turin, it is rarely displayed to the public.

Earlier this month, the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero said a well-known Swiss textile expert, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, had begun tests on the cloth and, as part of the research, cut out 30 patches woven into it in the 16th century.

Flury-Lemberg confirmed then that she had received Vatican approval to perform the tests. But she has refused to say exactly what her work has entailed.

Some experts worry that in the absence of any oversight, she may have damaged the cloth. In the past, tests on the cloth have involved a large committee of international scientists.

"This one was limited strictly to certain favorites in Turin, and Flury-Lemberg was one," said the Rev. Albert Dreisbach, an Episcopalian minister who has been studying the shroud since 1977.

Flury-Lemberg said Wednesday she would release photographs of her research next month.

"There are so many wrong things in the press," she said by telephone from Bern, Switzerland. "Everyone's speculating. I don't want to give any news."

Cardinal Severino Poletto, the archbishop of Turin and the shroud's custodian, said in an interview with the Italian Catholic newspaper L'Avvenire that the Vatican approved the tests.

He would not discuss Flury-Lemberg's procedures except to say her work was carried out in accordance with two Vatican conditions: that there be unanimous consent of the members of the Conservation Commission for the Shroud, a small group of experts overseeing the cloth, and that the cultural authorities of the Italian government be informed.

Members of the commission could not be reached Wednesday.

Ilona Farkas, who has been following shroud research since 1976 but is not a commission member, said scientists are upset.

"It's scandalous," Farkas said from Rome. "There will be tons of protests arriving at the Vatican from scientists."

Paul Maloney, general projects director for the Association of Scientists and Scholars International for the Shroud of Turin, located in Pennsylvania, said the lack of information has "many of us around the world very frustrated, because we don't know how to assess what they have done."

Maloney, who is also not a member of the smaller commission, said experts fear "historically important information may be gone forever."

The cardinal said the research involved removing impurities and residue from the cloth, which is 13 feet long and three feet wide.

"The interventions have been carried out reservedly not out of a great desire for secrecy, but to guarantee the necessary calm for those who had to work, beside obvious reasons for safety," Poletto told L'Avennire.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: shroudturin
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To: Nebullis
Old post I know, but I had to respond. The carbon dating has been shown to be highly flawed, and to be a little unscientific in my choice of words, a complete joke.
161 posted on 09/04/2002 4:12:17 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: gcruse
Gcruse, let's just assume for argument's sake that the new testing, done by esteemed scientists and skeptics, proves that the carbon date tests were flawed, and the Shroud really dates to the 1st Century. Will you believe it? Or still say "BINGO?"
162 posted on 09/04/2002 4:13:59 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: gcruse
I hate to continue jumping in so late on this, but gcruse, carbon dating is known to be flawed. It is very good, I will readily and happily admit, when the item that is being tested is mostly contaminant-free. However, not only with the Shroud, carbon dating has been known to provide wildly divergent results. One example I remember seeing on a documentary was some sort of mummified person or animal from ancient Egypt which, archaeologically speaking, is known to have originated sometime around the 15th Century BC. They tested both the body and the wraps that encased it. The body dated correctly to around the 15th Century BC. The wraps (mind you, the wraps that are literally touching this body) dated to either the 2nd Century BC or 2nd Century AD (I forget which). Either way, that's over one millennium's difference! Why? contamination! And these weren't people with an agenda, trying to think up some hokey excuse to prove the Shroud true.
163 posted on 09/04/2002 4:18:29 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: gcruse
Wait a sec. So this is the "only" remaining example? Isn't this sort of a convoluted means of extrapolating here? "Well, we've found one and none other. So therefore there must be many of them that existed -even though we can't prove it scientifically and never will be able to- and this is the only one left! This must be!" Seems to me they are arguing from a point of ignorance.
164 posted on 09/04/2002 4:21:22 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: HumanaeVitae
Interesting, I did not know about the UCAI finding.
165 posted on 09/04/2002 4:22:45 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: ALS
oh really? And "linen cloths", means what to you?

It means more than one. Might mean two. There is allegedly also a head cloth that is a companion to the Shroud. That would fit the definition of "cloths."

BTW, it's not in the Bible. Neither are instructions on how to pee.

166 posted on 09/04/2002 4:31:32 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Gcruse, let's just assume for argument's sake that the
new testing, done by esteemed scientists and skeptics, proves that the
carbon date tests were flawed, and the Shroud really
dates to the 1st Century. Will you believe it? Or still say "BINGO?"

New testing, done in secret, by a lab chosen
solely by the Vatican?    Sure, I'd believe their
results as strongly as I did those of the lab
results in the mid-nineties that showed after
almost infinite dilution, wherein it was impossible
any molecules of the original material could
be left in the water, that traces of the
previous presence remained.  Was I surprised
to find, much later, that the tests had been
sponsored by a homeopathic company
in France that sold highly diluted elixirs
on the theory that 'like cures like?'  Heh, no.
Science not done openly or peer
reviewed is usually not science at all.

167 posted on 09/04/2002 4:51:29 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: Conservative til I die
Old post I know, but I had to respond.

You're pretending that darning style analysis is more accurate than contaminated carbon dating. It may be easier to redo the carbon dating on several sections of the cloth, including the newer patches.

168 posted on 09/04/2002 6:20:18 PM PDT by Nebullis
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To: Nebullis
I think yes, they should redo the carbon dating, but do it in a scientific manner. From what I've read, the scientists basically did their test on the one piece, found a number, it was the number they wanted to find, and that was it for the testing.
169 posted on 09/04/2002 6:33:41 PM PDT by Conservative til I die
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To: Conservative til I die
Thank you. It's nice to see someone think instead of crawl in lockstep for a change.
170 posted on 09/04/2002 7:53:03 PM PDT by ALS
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To: mjp
bump
171 posted on 12/30/2002 6:45:59 PM PST by Swordmaker
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To: Conservative til I die
The Koran contains enough on that, for BOTH books.
172 posted on 12/30/2002 6:54:35 PM PST by crystalk
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To: mjp
Ho, hum, here I will have to post again that this linen is NOT a shroud, nor any kind of garment. It is a flat sheet in an unusual long, narrow shape.

It is very unlikely that this was ever intended to be the permanent wrapping of a body to remain forever with it, while it decomposed, nor to remain with it even until the bones were gathered to put in an ossuary.

This is the moral equivalent of throwing an airline or bus blanket over a crash victim, to cover him up for decency, perhaps conserve body heat were he still alive.

Remember, the women were coming Sunday Morning to do the real burial wrapping, whatever was done in haste Friday night was never meant to be final.

If we are to assume that the account in John has scientific precision, and is not just a good story, we might suggest that further work WAS done between the few moments after he was taken down, and the John account...in which case, this sheet would have been taken off by Joseph or someone as a souvenir perhaps, as it was not needed for the final burial... and the "cloths" of John, then, WERE the final ones...

but just as easily, this was just the light wrap laid over the body, and other blankets and cloths MIGHT have been over that, and those are what Peter and John saw.

173 posted on 12/30/2002 7:03:55 PM PST by crystalk
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To: gcruse
There seem to be equally credible refutations. The matter is hardly settled.
174 posted on 12/30/2002 7:44:11 PM PST by AmericanVictory
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