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Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars
AP Online ^ | 8-21-02 | ROXANA M. POPESCU

Posted on 08/21/2002 7:41:41 PM PDT by mjp

Shroud of Turin tests miff scientists, religious scholars

ROME (August 21, 2002 5:23 p.m. EDT) - Experts on the Shroud of Turin said Wednesday they felt frustrated and betrayed to learn a Swiss textile expert had obtained Vatican approval to test the sacred cloth without involvement from the international scientific community. The shroud is a strip of linen believers say was used to wrap the body of Jesus. Kept in the Cathedral of Turin, it is rarely displayed to the public.

Earlier this month, the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero said a well-known Swiss textile expert, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, had begun tests on the cloth and, as part of the research, cut out 30 patches woven into it in the 16th century.

Flury-Lemberg confirmed then that she had received Vatican approval to perform the tests. But she has refused to say exactly what her work has entailed.

Some experts worry that in the absence of any oversight, she may have damaged the cloth. In the past, tests on the cloth have involved a large committee of international scientists.

"This one was limited strictly to certain favorites in Turin, and Flury-Lemberg was one," said the Rev. Albert Dreisbach, an Episcopalian minister who has been studying the shroud since 1977.

Flury-Lemberg said Wednesday she would release photographs of her research next month.

"There are so many wrong things in the press," she said by telephone from Bern, Switzerland. "Everyone's speculating. I don't want to give any news."

Cardinal Severino Poletto, the archbishop of Turin and the shroud's custodian, said in an interview with the Italian Catholic newspaper L'Avvenire that the Vatican approved the tests.

He would not discuss Flury-Lemberg's procedures except to say her work was carried out in accordance with two Vatican conditions: that there be unanimous consent of the members of the Conservation Commission for the Shroud, a small group of experts overseeing the cloth, and that the cultural authorities of the Italian government be informed.

Members of the commission could not be reached Wednesday.

Ilona Farkas, who has been following shroud research since 1976 but is not a commission member, said scientists are upset.

"It's scandalous," Farkas said from Rome. "There will be tons of protests arriving at the Vatican from scientists."

Paul Maloney, general projects director for the Association of Scientists and Scholars International for the Shroud of Turin, located in Pennsylvania, said the lack of information has "many of us around the world very frustrated, because we don't know how to assess what they have done."

Maloney, who is also not a member of the smaller commission, said experts fear "historically important information may be gone forever."

The cardinal said the research involved removing impurities and residue from the cloth, which is 13 feet long and three feet wide.

"The interventions have been carried out reservedly not out of a great desire for secrecy, but to guarantee the necessary calm for those who had to work, beside obvious reasons for safety," Poletto told L'Avennire.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: shroudturin
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To: gcruse
No.

You use your head. The Shroud was "dated" by a bunch of atheists at 1130-1290. Ok. Fine. Please explain how a bunch of medieval bufoons produced a photonegative image on a piece of cloth, an image that they couldn't even see let alone verify for its accuracy, seven centuries before the invention of the camera.

21 posted on 08/21/2002 8:51:41 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
bufoons=buffoons.
22 posted on 08/21/2002 8:52:37 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: mjp
http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm

For specific news reports on the recent, controversial work.
23 posted on 08/21/2002 8:52:39 PM PDT by AncientAirs
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To: HumanaeVitae
I read somewhere that those tests came back inaccurate because the scientists failed to take into account the buildup of bacteria on the cloth over the years. This newer bacteria apparently scewed the results.
24 posted on 08/21/2002 8:57:13 PM PDT by oldvike
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To: HumanaeVitae
You use your head. The Shroud was "dated" by a bunch of atheists at 1130-1290.

 It was dated by scientific methodology.  You don't know the scientists
were atheists, either.  I know you would have preferred the Pope just
declare the shroud that of Jesus and be done with it.  Frankly, I don't
see why he didn't do it, either.  Maybe you can tell me.

Ok. Fine. Please explain how a bunch of
medieval bufoons produced a photonegative image on
a piece of cloth, an image that they couldn't even see let alone verify for
its accuracy, seven centuries before the invention of the camera.

[I]mage formation techniques employing technology readily
available to medieval cultures as far back as the eleventh
century strongly suggests that the negative image as found
on the Shroud of Turin was the product of a form of
primitive photography employing either silver
nitrate or silver sulphate as a light sensitive agent.

25 posted on 08/21/2002 8:57:54 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: Jimer; gcruse
Please stop. You guys are killing me. Such a riot you are. Seriously, gcruse, before popping off, why don't you use YOUR head. The cloth is involved in a fire in, if memory serves, the 13th century. Smoke. Ash. Molten silver from the enclosure dripping directly on the cloth and causing burns and scorches. Carbon 14 dating is based on what???? that's right, as we are wont to say --- BINGO! --- carbon. Imagine that. Anyone who is not willing to at least concede the very real possibility that the fire tainted the carbon 14 dating is, at best, being wilfuly obtuse.
26 posted on 08/21/2002 8:59:52 PM PDT by j.havenfarm
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To: gcruse
"Image formation techniques employing technology readily available to medieval cultures as far back as the eleventh century strongly suggests that the negative image as found on the Shroud of Turin was the product of a form of primitive photography employing either silver nitrate or silver sulphate as a light sensitive agent."?

Wrong. Pickett and Pierce attempted to replicate this method and it failed to reproduce the three-dimensional quality of the Shroud. It's been tested over and over. Failure every time.

27 posted on 08/21/2002 9:02:05 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: j.havenfarm
You're exactly right. It did.
28 posted on 08/21/2002 9:02:47 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
Please explain how 13th Century charlatans came up with a photonegative on a piece of pigment-free cloth

The image is of Leonardo da Vinci. He dabbled in photography and created the shroud using a camera of his own design. Whether he intended to deceive us in the 21st century is unlikely.

29 posted on 08/21/2002 9:03:14 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: j.havenfarm
The 'using your head' comment had to do with the motivation of the Vatican to very quietly pick a lab of their desire to test the shroud some more. Pay attention.
30 posted on 08/21/2002 9:03:20 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: gcruse
And another thing. I've seen the spots on TV about these convoluted processes to try to produce a similar image. So let me get this straight - - these medievel folks developed techniques to produce a barely visible image, most clearly visible under circumstances, e.g., photgraphic negative, that were not available to the people they were trying to fool. This in an age of profound ignorance, where miracles could be, and were, readily contrived and much more conventionally produced images could have been passed off as "painted by the hand of God," if the proper accompanying cirucmstances could be ginned up. Makes sense to me.
31 posted on 08/21/2002 9:05:39 PM PDT by j.havenfarm
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To: HumanaeVitae
  it failed to reproduce the three-dimensional quality

This phenomenon quite clearly conforms very closely to the
characteristics of the image as found in the Shroud of Turin
and if this hypothetical account is in any way accurate, it strongly
implies that the Shroud of Turin may be the only extant example
of a lost photographic technology which is normally assumed to
have been first discovered in the early nineteenth century by
such people as Thomas Wedgwood and Sir Humphry Davy.

32 posted on 08/21/2002 9:06:08 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: j.havenfarm
See posts 25 and 32. Thanks.
33 posted on 08/21/2002 9:08:40 PM PDT by gcruse
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To: gcruse
I don't know if it's Him or not. I wasn't there. Someday we'll all find out. I'm OK with that.
34 posted on 08/21/2002 9:09:02 PM PDT by Ramius
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To: mjp
real or phony is irrelevant... the question a person must ask: How does this affect my salvation?
35 posted on 08/21/2002 9:09:59 PM PDT by InvisibleChurch
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To: gcruse
No, you pay attention, braniac. The carbon 14 tests were done what, 20, 22 years ago? They don't seem to have been in any big hurry to produce a contrary result. On top of which, your comment characterizes Vatican motive that is not stated by any of the persons quoted in the article and there is no Vatican comment as to why they have proceeded in this way. You have jumped to your conclusion, and just because you have such deep insight does not mean that you are right.
36 posted on 08/21/2002 9:10:25 PM PDT by j.havenfarm
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To: j.havenfarm
" Anyone who is not willing to at least concede the very real possibility that the fire tainted the carbon 14 dating is, at best, being wilfuly obtuse."

I read a science report a while back that concedes that point.

37 posted on 08/21/2002 9:12:29 PM PDT by blam
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To: gcruse
"it strongly implies that the Shroud of Turin may be the only extant example of a "lost photographic technology which is normally assumed to have been first discovered in the early nineteenth century by such people as Thomas Wedgwood and Sir Humphry Davy."

Ha! A lost photographic technology! Of course, it's the only example! Yeah, that's the ticket! What's next? It came from Atlantis?

You know what your statement says to me? This: "I really, really want to be an atheist". That's it. Anyway, enough throwing pearls before swine. if you don't want to see it, you'll never see it.

38 posted on 08/21/2002 9:16:49 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
Amen, friend. Gotta go - 'night all.
39 posted on 08/21/2002 9:19:28 PM PDT by j.havenfarm
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To: j.havenfarm
Experts on the Shroud of Turin said Wednesday they felt frustrated and betrayed
to learn a Swiss textile expert had obtained Vatican approval to test the sacred
cloth without involvement from the international scientific community.

Ah, we've come full circle.  Now I'll ask you.  What do you
think was the Vatican's motivation for secretly contracting
with a hand-picked lab to test more of the cloth?

40 posted on 08/21/2002 9:19:48 PM PDT by gcruse
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