Posted on 08/19/2002 11:18:23 PM PDT by Selmo
Randy Weaver, still wiry after 10 years out of the limelight, his dark hair turned silver, was signing autographs for fellow survivalists at an Independent American Party convention in Elko, Nev., in April when someone asked if he would act differently if he could relive the horrible 11-day siege at Ruby Ridge.
"I would have put on my full camo," Weaver said, looking at his questioner, "and shoot them in the back. As many as I could."
It has been a decade since Weaver, waiting for Armageddon while holed up in a crude cabin in the Selkirk Mountains of Northern Idaho just 40 miles south of the Canadian border, engaged in a firefight with federal law enforcement agents.
The Aug. 21, 1992, shoot-out resulted in the deaths of three people - Weaver's wife, Vicki, holding an infant daughter when she was shot through the head by an FBI sniper; their 13-year-old son, Sammy; and Deputy U.S. Marshal William Degan. It also raised serious questions about the use of force and abuse of police powers by FBI agents and other law enforcement officials.
Weaver surrendered to authorities and, in July 1993, was acquitted of murder charges related to Degan's death. The FBI wasn't as fortunate. Subsequent investigations were critical of law enforcement's methods - gunfire occurred before the Weavers were afforded an opportunity to surrender - and the federal government in 1995 settled damage claims by paying Weaver and three surviving daughters $3.1 million.
The incident helped spawn an American militia movement that continues today, although its popularity appears to have waned. It also served, in the view of many, as a prime example of the abuse of federal law enforcement powers. The bombing of the federal government building in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh in April 1995, leaving more than 150 dead, reportedly was motivated, at least in part, by revenge for what is known as the Shootout at Ruby Ridge.
Gerry Spence, the legendary attorney who successfully represented Weaver at trial, said the Idaho standoff and similar incidents, like the deaths of David Koresh and his followers in Waco, Texas, show what can occur when police powers are not properly checked.
"Where there is excess of power there will always be abuse of power," Spence said. "The people of this country are more and more acceding to the intervention of government into their lives. They look to the government for protection and more and more are willing to give up their rights in exchange for promises by the government for protection.
"The question then, of course, is who protects them from the government?" he said.
Spence said he and Weaver are "worlds apart philosophically" but he felt compelled to represent a man who believes in racial separation with ties to the Aryan nation because he was victimized by governmental abuse of power.
"We can expect increasingly more of it," he said.
Weaver and his family moved to Ruby Ridge in late 1983 to escape what they viewed as a sinful world. The home Weaver built with his own hands had neither electricity nor running water. Family members settled in and waited for the second coming.
According to a Justice Department report, Weaver first came to the attention of federal law enforcement personnel in 1985 after reportedly making threats against then-President Ronald Reagan and Idaho Gov. John Evans. A Secret Service investigation showed that Weaver mingled with members of the Aryan Nation, a white supremacist group, and had a cache of weapons including handguns and rifles and access to explosives and "an unlimited amount of ammunition."
Weaver denied making the threats and told agents he had "no time for Aryan Nation's preachers." But in July 1989, Weaver appeared as a speaker at the World Aryan Congress and met up with Kenneth Fadeley, an undercover informant for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In October, after several conversations, Weaver sold Fadeley a pair of sawed-off shotguns for $300.
It was this incident, and Weaver's subsequent indictment on weapons charges, that led to the shootout. Federal agents initially tried to use the gun charge as leverage to get Weaver to inform on the Aryan nation. He refused. On Aug. 21, 1992, three deputy U.S. marshals were on Weaver's Ruby Ridge property trying to determine how best to bring him into custody when the shootout occurred, leaving Degan and Sammy Weaver dead. An FBI sniper killed Vicki Weaver the next day.
John Trochmann, a Weaver family friend and co-founder of the Militia of Montana, witnessed the standoff and described it as "a sad time in our lives when certain federal agencies exercised their might over the people."
Like Spence, Trochmann believes an incident like Ruby Ridge can occur again, noting that, "it happened again in Waco, Texas."
For a time, Trochmann said, it appeared the FBI and other agencies were using more subtle tactics. In 1996, for instance, the FBI was engaged in an 81-day siege involving about two-dozen heavily armed members of the Freemen group, hunkered down in a Montana ranch. The Freemen, who reject governmental authority, were wanted for passing bogus checks amounting to about $15 billion. The incident ended without violence.
But Trochmann said in the wake of 9/11, the federal government's attitude might be changing again.
"Based on past performance, I believe a mission creep is in progress," Trochmann said. "There is a homeland defense force being created that can do much the same thing."
As a 9-11 newbie, what the he** do you know about Free Republic, huh? Nothing! We were here long before you, brain stem, it's our (meaning conservative, not GOP) forum. If anyone needs to leave, it's your liberal Pubbie a**.
Furthermore, if you think that the folks on this thread are praising McVeigh (check your spelling, dumba**), they you're obviously too damn stupid to be here. Go away.
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
Well, when I posted that from the BBC News, I should have issued a disclaimer,
FRiend. So, just fyi......
To: wku man
So what's your point?
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
______________________________
No point, just fyi. When Google Imageg searching for the pictures I posted in
#8, I found that little blurb written last year by the BBC News.
30 posted on 8/20/02 11:05 AM Central by MeeknMing
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!
Not a problem, FRiend. My post was totally in error as I didn't qualify it as being from BBC News and "just fyi". FReepers are very observant. See my reply to
another on #46 also. Maybe I oughta have post #9 removed, lol !?
Most people don't know that, besides the famous 18" barrel-length minimum, there's also an overall-length minimum. I thought they actually got him on the stock being too short for the overall-length minimum
Ummmmm.....No. Sorry Skippy. The Branch Davidians are DEAD because they were a bunch of Jim Jones Death Cult FREAKS who believed that demented David Koresh...Not much different than radical Muslims really. Every single one of them COULD be live today if they had simply come out of their pedophile lair. But nooooooooooooo......They believed David Koresh. They got exactly what they wanted...Death. Weaver's wife is dead because he cared more about being some KOOK than he did about his family.
Whine and cry and bitch and moan and complain all you want about the Big, Bad Mean Government....But guess what? You only come off as a KOOK yourself. Deal with it.
What website? Do you have me confused with someone else? The only thing I've got that comes close to a website is my EZBoard Fantasy Football Message Board. LOL!
Furthermore, if you think that the folks on this thread are praising McVeigh (check your spelling, dumba**), they you're obviously too damn stupid to be here. Go away.
Oh.....The Good old "I joined before YOU did defense"!! What's next? I'm rubber and you're glue??
And please read my posts before making a fool of yourself....I didn't say anyone on this thread was praising McVeigh (Sorry about the spelling), I said that racist scumbag, Randy Weaver was praising him...And then of course, many WHACKED-OUT KOOKS were praising Weaver...Which, quite frankly, is embarrassing. Anyone who praises Randy Weaver belongs on Stormfront.org, not here. In my opinion, of course.
2.) U.S. Marshalls were trespassing on Mr. Weavers property without having any warrant in their possesion.
3.) U.S. Marshalls without the benefit of a warrant, without warning, shot and killed Mr. Weavers dog in front of Mr. Weavers son, Sammy.
4.) Without identifying themselves as U.S. Marshalls, two individuals in full U.S. issue camoflage carrying automatic weapons leaped from their hiding places in front of a terrified Samual Weaver brandishing the aforementioned automatic weapons.
5.) Samuel Weaver fired one round from his weapon which struck a U.S. Marshall, inflicting a fatal wound.
6.) Samuel Weaver then turned in an attempt to flee the scene when he was shot in the back by the second Marshall who was, once again for the factually impaired, trespassing on Mr. Weavers land without the benefit of a duly constituted Warrant.
I don't know if Mr. Weaver actually said what he is supposed to have said here or not. However, I completely agree with his sentiments. He should have cammied up and gone on a little hunt of his own and not left one single son of a b***** alive on that mountain except for the members of his family.
Oh, and just for the record Johny boy, a duly constituted Jury had the opportunity to convict Mr. Weaver of murder.
They declined to do so.
The killing of the U.S. Marshall was ruled 'justifiable' by a jury of Mr. Weavers peers.
Would that more juries display that kind of common sense these days.....
L
Oh, I get it now! Sorry, I must be a bit slow....
"Promoting"? No... Just simply making the assumption that many people who praise Randy Weaver are racists...Since he is.
Believe me...I see comments from kooks about Waco and Ruby Ridge all the time and don't say anything...Out of simple respect for freedom of ideas. But then I see stuff like the above. And well........
I reserve the right (Until Admin Moderator decides I don't have the "Right", that is). to speak my opinion. Even if it's not Free Republically Correct.
2.) U.S. Marshalls were trespassing on Mr. Weavers property without having any warrant in their possesion.
3.) U.S. Marshalls without the benefit of a warrant, without warning, shot and killed Mr. Weavers dog in front of Mr. Weavers son, Sammy.
4.) Without identifying themselves as U.S. Marshalls, two individuals in full U.S. issue camoflage carrying automatic weapons leaped from their hiding places in front of a terrified Samual Weaver brandishing the aforementioned automatic weapons.
5.) Samuel Weaver fired one round from his weapon which struck a U.S. Marshall, inflicting a fatal wound.
6.) Samuel Weaver then turned in an attempt to flee the scene when he was shot in the back by the second Marshall who was, once again for the factually impaired, trespassing on Mr. Weavers land without the benefit of a duly constituted Warrant.
I will not argue what is right and what is wrong here. Let's say it's all factual...
All Randy Weaver had to do (And would have done if he wasn't a Whacked-Out Government Hating KOOK) was walk out of the house and cooperate with authorities. Just like the vast majority of us normal humans would have done.
I REFUSE to feel sorry for idiots! And question the motives of those who praise said idiots. Deal with it.
I don't know if Mr. Weaver actually said what he is supposed to have said here or not. However, I completely agree with his sentiments. He should have cammied up and gone on a little hunt of his own and not left one single son of a b***** alive on that mountain except for the members of his family.
Yeah....This is real nice!
Nobody ever displayed so much as a badge, let alone a warrant. Those to FedGov idiots had shot Mr. Weavers dog, and murdered his son with a taxpayer paid volley of automatic weapons fire in the back. Just for good measure, they cranked off a full magazine in the direction of his house and wounded a family friend for Gods sake.
Then boneheads like you want to fault Mr. Weaver for not leaving the cabin with his hands up! Hell, the only reason I would have left that cabin would be to pick the ***holes who had just murdered my son off one by one until they were out of rifle range.
Noone demanded that Weaver surrender until hours later when the FBI began rolling armored vehicles onto his property. Even then, noone bothered to inform him that there was a warrant out for his arrest. But, hey why sweat the details eh?
I mean the Feds had just stored up oodles of goodwill in their dealings with Mr. Weaver, hadn't they? Geez, they frigging lied to him every step of the way.
And once again, just for you Johny boy, a duly constituted Jury had the opportunity to convict Mr. Weaver of Capital Murder as well as multiple counts of conspiracy, and firearms violations. The Jury declined to do so on all counts, ruling that the killing of that Federal Goon Marshall was in fact a justifiable killing and that Mr. Weaver was not guilty of any, (that means none, zip, zilch, nada) responsibility in the death.
Now, you deal with that.
Federal Officials acting outside the law under false color of authority are fair game for killing by private citizens. The Supreme Court has already said so. See U.S. v. Cruikshank if you doubt me.
Now, you don't have to like it, but that's the way it is. The law on the matter is already settled.
Mr. Weavers political views are irrelevant to the situation.
There's also the small matter of the settlement paid to Mr. Weaver by Janet Renos Justice Department in order to settle a wrongful death suit. The Federal Government paid Mr. Weaver something on the order of 3 million dollars, without admitting any wrongdoing of course.
Now, you don't have to like Mr. Weavers political views. I don't like them either. That doesn't change the fact that that particular U.S. Marshall, on that particular day was legally responsible for his own death and had in fact murdered an innocent 12 year old boy.
Mr. Weaver would have been perfectly within his rights under Idaho law to hunt everyone involved down and kill them while they remained on his property.
Had the same thing happened to me and my family on my property under similar circumstances I assure you not one of them would have left my property alive while I was drawing breath.
You may be willing to tolerate unlawful behavior by Federal authorities including murder because you don't like the victims political views, but I am not.
Marshall Dugan is dead because on that particular day he was acting in not only an unlawful manner, but a particularly stupid unlawful manner.
Randy Weaver and his family weren't doing a damn thing wrong that day. The Federal Government was.
Deal with that.
L
Let me ask you a question: under what circumstances is it, or should it be, acceptable for a government agent to discharge his weapon in the general direction of innocent people and other officers, other than at a specifically identified hostile target? I look forward to your reply.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.