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RASH OF KIDNAPPINGS The Bitter Fruit of the Homosexual Agenda
Gargantua | August 19, 2002 | Gargantua

Posted on 08/19/2002 11:15:10 AM PDT by Gargantua

RASH OF KIDNAPPINGS
The Bitter Fruit Of Liberal Society
and the Homosexual Agenda

When we take God out of our classrooms, we have found that we soon are forced to replace Him with metal detectors, just to keep our kids from knifing and shooting each other to death.

The latest and most bitter fruit our society as a whole must swallow is that of the Liberal push for the Homosexual Agenda. As Dr. Alan Keyes made the point of during the last Presidential debates, when we excuse, and preach acceptance of, perversions of sexual deviancy, we open the door to making all forms of sexual perversion acceptable. After all, who is to judge?

“If it’s okay him to to be queer, then why can’t I be a pedophile?” “…a necropheliac?” “…a hamster humper?”

The point being made here is that all of us have sexual urges. Sometimes they occur in the marketplace, or at our jobs, or on the beach. We as citizens of a civilized and moral society, however, are encouraged and expected to refrain from acting on these urges. Why? Because it is wrong to grab a cute girl at the checkout counter and start feeling her breasts, no matter how tempting they may appear.

Oddly, for the people in our society possessed of the male-female heterosexual norm, there are all sorts of things we cannot do, merely on the basis of right moral consideration. But should an individual desire homosexual deviancy, well then all of us should not only tell them that we think that’s just swell, we have to allow our teachers to preach this Neo-Liberal-Gospel to our kids in our public classrooms.

When our teachers start telling our kids that once taboo lifestyle choices such as homosexuality or lesbianism are now accepted as just “differences of personal choice” which should be respected by all, then we as a society are saying that sexual perversion, and consequently predation, have become a protected right.

The door is open. Our slide down the slippery slope accelerates geometrically.

The problem here is that whether one is a Liberal or a Conservative, we all are forced to take this one up the backside. And that is wrong, it is evil, and it has no place in this country… but for one sad fact: we are all to blame for this hideous re-definition of what America is, and what we all stand for.

It is our job, as a society, to discard the plastic notion of reluctance to speak out due to our having been programmed by the Liberals to respect that which is deemed (by them) to be “Politically Correct.” There is no “Politically Correct.”

There is in fact only right and wrong, and anyone who needs them explained has no place in a serious discussion where the lives and well-being of our children are concerned. Wake up, America. Smell the river. It stinks.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: destruction; homosexualagenda; liberal; society
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To: Taliesan
****you have no right to label people servants of Satan because they don't agree with you on what the United States government ought to do about consensual homosexuality.****

Oh but I do! And I shall.

And again you twist the facts. We aren't talking about consentual homesexuality. It is quite clear throughout this thread that the issue is rather the entire homosexual agenda and it's open promulgation and acceptance.
501 posted on 08/21/2002 1:46:42 PM PDT by mercy
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To: mercy
Sounds as though we essentially agree. The federal government has no place dictating to localities what their policy should be regarding homosexuals, or most other issues for that matter. What localities do is up to them. (Pretty good argument for privatizing schools, by the way.)
502 posted on 08/21/2002 1:47:21 PM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: Taliesan
"you have no right to label people servants of Satan ..."

Of course we don't. But if Jesus or God labels them as such, then Christians have not only the right, but are bound by the obligation, to proclaim it publicly.

Scripture is fraught with warnings that those who both insist on performing wicked acts, and who publicly defend and argue the right to perform those acts, are not tools of God, but rather are tools of the enemy (who is Satan).

Gargantua did confuse those two verses, but he was right about the point being made. And, like any Christian should, he repentantly admitted his error.

503 posted on 08/21/2002 3:07:53 PM PDT by Dynamo
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To: Taliesan
"This exchange, which you put in quotation marks..."

If you go back and look closely, you'll note that he put the words in 'semi-quotes' (single slash ' as opposed to double "). In writer-speak, this is a 'loose quote' or 'paraphrase' as opposed to a direct "quote."

Writers do this when they are less than 100% certain of the exact verbiage, or of its correct attribution.

504 posted on 08/21/2002 3:14:56 PM PDT by Dynamo
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To: Dynamo
re: Post #503

Well said. Sin is sin, is sin.

No liberal-relativism here, just black and white.


505 posted on 08/21/2002 3:20:21 PM PDT by Lilly
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To: Taliesan
"Admit it: you made up a conversation between Jesus and his disciples..."

I will admit that I misremembered segments of Mark, 4:2-4 and Matthew, 24 (on the Mount of Olives, and not the Upper Room), and confused them with 1 John, 4:1. I sincerely apologize for this, and truly meant not to mislead, nor to alter the Word. I thank you for your wise counsel, and humbly implore your understanding and forgiveness.

There is only one perfect One, and I am surely not He.

As I said before, this is why God gave us His Word in the Bible... so that when two believers disagree, they can refer to the Source and find His Truth.

I do stand corrected, and I do thank you.

506 posted on 08/21/2002 6:09:22 PM PDT by Gargantua
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To: Lilly
As has been said in this article, when we begin teaching our children in public school to accept and condone not only deviancy, but that which is offensive before God, we have only ourselves to blame for the tragic fruit which awaits us.

May God bless you, Lilly, for your courage and discernment.

507 posted on 08/21/2002 6:14:15 PM PDT by Dynamo
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To: Dynamo
As has been said in this article, when we begin teaching our children in public school to accept and condone not only deviancy, but that which is offensive before God, we have only ourselves to blame for the tragic fruit which awaits us.

Pity you don't direct your ire at the source of the problem here.. instead of a symptom.

The very existence of public schools (which are socialist by definition, and incompatible with a free nation) is the problem.

Get rid of them, and allow parents to purchase the education they want for their children on the free market.

508 posted on 08/22/2002 8:59:55 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
This nation had fine public schools for generations before the Liberal Push began in the '30's and '40's.

The Founding Fathers believed that of the three books which must be taught in public schools, one of them was the Bible.

It was when we took God out of our classrooms that we began the downward-spiraling process whereby we now teach our kids that it is okay to be queer... an abomination before God.

The Federal Government as it exists today is but another symptom of the true root disease... which is a Godless society.

509 posted on 08/22/2002 1:33:55 PM PDT by Gargantua
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To: OWK
The longest-living Founding Father was John Quincy Adams. As such, he was a much sought after speaker for patriotic events. On July 4, 1837, he made a very astute observation.

He said, "Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day?

"Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the Progress of the Gospel dispensation?

"Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth?

"That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity and gave to the world the first irrevocable pledge of the fulfillment of the prophecies announced directly from Heaven at the birth of the Savior and predicted by the greatest of the Hebrew prophets 600 years before?"

510 posted on 08/22/2002 1:39:36 PM PDT by Gargantua
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To: OWK
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations. The battle is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, ALMIGHTY GOD! Give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention

"Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" President George Washington, September 17th, 1796

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." President George Washington

"...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained." President George Washington

"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?" Benjamin Franklin

"Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."Noah Webster

"Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others." Patrick Henry

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." President Thomas Jefferson

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson

"Of all systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson

"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President John Adams

"Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison

"We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." President James Madison

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay

"Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other." James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court

"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush

"It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." President John Quincy Adams

"a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public" First Lady Abigail Adams

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson

If there is anything in my thoughts or style to commend, the credit is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity." Daniel Webster

"It is extremely important to our nation , in a political as well as religious view , that all possible authority and influence should be given to the scriptures , for these furnish the best principles of civil liberty , and the most effectual support of republican government. The principles of all genuine liberty , and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority.The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...." Noah Webster

"The Bible must be considered as the great source of all the truth by which men are to be guided in government as well as in all social transactions...." Noah Webster

"The moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws...." Noah Webster

"All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice , crime , ambition , injustice , oppression , slavery , and war , proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible...." Noah Webster

"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and his apostles , which enjoins humility , piety and benevolence ; which acknowledges in every person a brother , or a sister , and a citizen with equal rights. This is genuine Christianity , and to this we owe our free constitutions of government...." Noah Webster

"It is the sincere desire of the writer (Noah Webster) that our citizens should early understand that the genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible , particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion." Noah Webster

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book. Abraham Lincoln

"Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that is should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian . . . this is a Christian nation." US Supreme Court, 1892

"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state." President Harry S. Truman.

"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual awakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration to ultimate national disaster" General Douglas MacArthur

511 posted on 08/22/2002 1:45:09 PM PDT by Gargantua
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To: Gargantua
It was when we took God out of our classrooms that we began the downward-spiraling process...

Actually, the downward spiral began when the government started subsidizing slovenly behavior through the welfare-state. Removing God from the classroom had nothing to do with anything.

Congress opens every day with prayer. And just look at all the good it does.

The solution is simple:

  1. Extricate government from education. Government ought not run education any more than it should run grocery stores. Parents should purchase educational services in the free-market just like they purchase anything other kind of service.
  2. End the welfare-state and repeal all socialist, wealth-redistribution laws.

512 posted on 08/22/2002 5:37:04 PM PDT by Alan Chapman
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To: Alan Chapman
"The principles of all genuine liberty , and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority.The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...." Noah Webster

Opening Congress with a prayer is not the same as being a nation, from one man to the next, of God-loving and Bible following people.

We were such a country once... and our fruits then were blessed.

We, as a nation of people, turned our backs on God. Your post here is an indication of what I mean. Our country now pays the price for that error.

Removing God had EVERYTHING to do with it. Suck it up, Tonto.

513 posted on 08/22/2002 7:36:58 PM PDT by Dynamo
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To: Dynamo
I can play the quote game too. But quotes don't constitute an argument.

Opening Congress with a prayer is not the same as being a nation, from one man to the next, of God-loving and Bible following people.

Non-sequitur drivel. Try again.

We, as a nation of people, turned our backs on God. Your post here is an indication of what I mean. Our country now pays the price for that error.

There is no "we." There is you and I -- individuals, with different wants, needs, and beliefs. Do not presume to speak for others.

The country isn't paying the price of abandoning God. Perhaps you are. The country is paying the price of sacrificing the individual for the collective and subjugating rights for expediancy and convenience. It is paying the price of instituting socialist wealth redistrubution programs, oppressive taxation, and stifling innovation and progress with burdensome regulation.

Removing God had EVERYTHING to do with it.

Religious fanatics would like everyone to believe that. It's a scare tactic intended to keep people in line. [Oh look! See what happens when you abandon God!] That's like telling somebody that God didn't cure their cancer because they didn't pray hard enough.

Some see the coercive force of government as a legitimate means of advancing religious dogma because it takes less effort than competing in the free-market of ideas. Like Thomas Jefferson said, "It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

Government handouts have been around since the mid-19th century. They expanded greatly during FDR's administration with the introduction of Aid to Dependent Children which later became Aid to Families with Dependent Children. During this time there was an explosion in illegitimate births and welfare dependancy from generation to generation.

"By June, 1965, in Los Angeles County alone, 146,531 children were receiving Aid to Families with Dependent Children. The cost in one month, for that type of "aid" alone in the County of Los Angeles, was $9,127,815. Of this, the Federal Government contributed $3,214,746 and the State Government contributed $3,530,120." -- Belva Detlof, Welfare Wonderland (1968)

514 posted on 08/22/2002 9:08:45 PM PDT by Alan Chapman
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To: Gargantua
Ah.... the quote game...

Ok... I'm in.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
--- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779

Our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State."
--- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
--- Thomas Jefferson to Carey, 1816

"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy, absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
--- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
--- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
--- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
--- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

. In fact, it is comfortable to see the standard of reason at length erected, after so many ages, during which the human mind has been held in vassalage by kings, priests, and nobles; and it is honorable for us, to have produced the first legislature who had the courage to declare, that the reason of man may be trusted with the formation of his own opinions....
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison from Paris, Dec. 16, 1786.

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?
--James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance,"

The law has the further advantage of having been the result of a formal appeal to the sense of the Community and a deliberate sanction of a vast majority, comprizing [sic] every sect of Christians in the State. This act is a true standard of Religious liberty; its principle the great barrier agst [against] usurpations on the rights of conscience. As long as it is respected & no longer, these will be safe. Every provision for them short of this principle, will be found to leave crevices, at least thro' which bigotry may introduce persecution; a monster, that feeding & thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine & human.
--James Madison, "Monopolies. Perpetuities. Corporations. Ecclesiastical Endowments,"

Is conformity of sentiments in matters of religion essential to the happiness of civil government? Not at all. Government has no more to do with the religious opinions of men than it has with the principles of the mathematics. Let every man speak freely without fear--maintain the principles that he believes--worship according to his own faith, either one God, three Gods, no God, or twenty Gods; and let government protect him in so doing, i.e., see that he meets with no personal abuse or loss of property for his religious opinions. Instead of discouraging him with proscriptions, fines, confiscation or death, let him be encouraged, as a free man, to bring forth his arguments and maintain his points with all boldness; then if his doctrine is false it will be confuted, and if it is true (though ever so novel) let others credit it. When every man has this liberty what can he wish for more? A liberal man asks for nothing more of government.
--John Leland, "The Rights of Conscience Inalienable, and Therefore Religious Opinions not Cognizable by Law" [a pamphlet], New London, Connecticut, 1791.

As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of government to protect all conscientious protesters thereof, and I know of no other business government has to do therewith.
--Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776.

"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."
--Ben Franklin 1790

Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
Benjamin Franklin, 1790

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787-

It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses....
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" 1787

515 posted on 08/23/2002 5:56:50 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
Yes, many of the Founding Fathers, as is true of Biblical Christians nowadays, frowned upon Catholicism as the man-made, destructive cult that it has shown itself to be lately.

From the Crusades right on up to Predator Pedophile Priests, if we will know the true church from the evil ones "by their works," as Jesus told us, then there is little doubt about this.

Good point, Okie.

516 posted on 08/23/2002 6:32:22 AM PDT by Gargantua
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To: Alan Chapman
As explained here. Look up some of these words if their meaning eludes you.... the same guy whose quote appears above here probably wrote and first published your dictionary.

""The principles of all genuine liberty , and of wise laws and administrations are to be drawn from the Bible and sustained by it's authority. The man therefore who weakens or destroys the divine authority of that book may be accessory to all the public disorders which society is doomed to suffer...." Noah Webster

517 posted on 08/23/2002 6:36:15 AM PDT by Gargantua
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To: Gargantua
I see.

When confronted with the words of the founders regarding religion (in which not ONE single mention of the word "Catholic" is contained)... you use it as an opportunity to dump on your Catholic brethren.

You religious folk are a strange lot.

518 posted on 08/23/2002 6:37:19 AM PDT by OWK
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To: OWK
"As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it..." Ben Franklin

Hey, give the guy credit... at least he's honest.

519 posted on 08/23/2002 6:38:21 AM PDT by Gargantua
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To: Gargantua
Our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry
--Thomas Jefferson, Bill for Establishing Religious Liberty in Virginia 1779
520 posted on 08/23/2002 6:39:20 AM PDT by OWK
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