GM Unveils Photos of 'Skateboard' Fuel Cell Vehicle

boston.com ^ | 08/14/2002 | Ed Garsten A.P. and other...

[DoughtyOne]

The body is connected to a skateboard-like chassis that contains most of the vehicle's working parts.

General Motors Corp. revealing the first pictures Wednesday of the fuel cell powered vehicle, called the Hy-wire.

It's the first drivable version of a concept the automaker unveiled during January's North American International Auto Show in Detroit under the name Autonomy as its attempt to reinvent the automobile.

[Petronski]

Hydrogen is not a fuel, in this sense: it is with current technology, only a 'battery.' It takes loads of energy to produce the hydrogen that is then used by the engine/motor. Whether the energy used to produce the hydrogen comes from oil or nuclear, ultimately hydrogen will not be viable without those 'true' fuels.

Using hydrogen does NOTHING to solve our current energy issues.

[WyldKard]

Seriously, given that the H2 comes mostily out of traditional fuels, why would it be better to use it. Can you get more miles out of the H2 coming out of a mile of gasoline than you would by simply burning the gas in a traditional car? And is there an estimate of how many more miles? Or is it fewer miles but making H2 out of gasoline is cleaner than burning the gasoline in the car? I am trying to understand.

Those are some very good questions, and I'm afraid I don't have the answer to some of them. However, it's my understanding that we can get H2 from other sources, like LNG and methenol. On the other hand, it may be that these cars turn into such gas sippers that Russia can supply us with whatever gas we need, and we can STILL kick those Saudi's to the curb. And as to your question of burning, using H2 in a fuel cell is essentially non-polluting (it produces water vapor.) That's not counting any pollution that comes from creating H2 out of whatever source you are converting it from.

We're not just talking about the "raw work power" that a gallon of gas gives verses an equivalent amount of H2. A lot of it is how you USE that power. A lack of mechanical parts increases fuel efficency dramatically, for instance.

I think GM just needs to get off this goofy, stupid looking concept idea though. The first hybrid cards looked silly, but I hear a lot of people interested in buying a Honda Civic hybrid because...it looks exactly like a normal car!

[A Vast RightWing Conspirator]

it takes a while to adapt to the fact that a totally new design is needed.

Agreed. Saw the cars of A.I. (the movie)?

[11B3]

Actually, this thing makes me think of the cars in "Sleeper" by Woody Allen more than anything else. The body would be pretty cool - with a alcohol burning high-compression 426 Hemi crate motor in it hooked up to a Lenco 5 speed and a Halibrand independent axled quick change rear end. Take that, tree huggers. Nothing like a 9 second car....

[Ol' Sox]

The body is connected to a skateboard-like chassis that contains most of the vehicle's working parts.

Body? Who needs a body on this bad boy? Just hop on and surf it to work! Cowabunga, dude!

[stainlessbanner]

Sure - I'll go "open-air"!

[Lockbox]

One main reason that the automobile industry is looking to gasoline to provide the Hydrogen supply, is lack of Hydrogen refueling infrastructure. If you need Hydrogen refueling stations across the nation before you can sell Hydrogen powered cars; you have a big expensive problem. Someone need to either spend a large amount of money in order to develop Hydrogen refueling stations, and/or convert existing gasoline stations before the public will buy Hydrogen powered cars. No sense buying a car you have to drive miles to refuel.

The problem with hydrogen is that, to be a practical fuel, it must be stored and transported under pressure. That stipulation raises a host of convenience and safety issues, not the least of which is the need for government permits to store and transport it. One thing that everyone involved with alternative energy sources seems to agree on is that building a refueling or recharging infrastructure is a major--perhaps the major--difficulty to be overcome.

[EODGUY]

"I don't think this skateboard will do too well here in Michigan where we tend to get snow for 4 months of the year."

You must live on "mainland" Michigan. I was stationed at a base in the Upper Penninsula long ago and we DIDN'T get snow for about 4 months of the year. :)

You are right, though. I don't see it being a practical mode of transportation anywhere the white stuff falls, unless you use it exclusively as a summer vehicle, much the same as nearly all in my area (Wisconsin) use their Corvettes.

[stuck_in_new_orleans]

Looks like it would get squished by a SUV like a bug

[MadIvan]

If GM really wanted to do you a favour, they'd implement this:

Mayflower has designs on your car
BBC News

British engineering firm Mayflower has unveiled a novel car engine that it claims can cut fuel use by 40% and slash exhaust fumes by half.

The improved fuel economy has been produced by changing the way that pistons connect to the crankshaft in an engine.

Mayflower claims that its "intelligent" e3 engine could mean the advent of vehicles with adaptable engines that act like a nippy run-about in town, but become more saloon-like on the open road.

Mayflower said the engine could be in production within five years.

Flawed design

The e3 Variable Motion Engine is the fruit of 11 years of research by Mayflower scientist Dr Joe Ehrlich, who has spent his whole life working with internal combustion engines.

In conventional engines, the piston is connected directly to the crankshaft of a car with a linkage called a con-rod. The crankshaft converts the up-down motion of the pistons into rotational motion to turn the car's wheels.

The e3 engine puts a pivot between the crankshaft and con-rod. This change means combustion is more complete because the piston slows down just after the fuel is ignited. Better combustion means more power per piston stroke and fewer unburnt fuel emissions.

"I have always felt that the conventional crank and con-rod was flawed," said Dr Ehrlich. "It wastes too much energy and does not optimise combustion."

The changed angle of the connecting con-rod at combustion imparts more of a kick to the crankshaft, making the engine more energy efficient. In conventional engines, some of the energy generated during combustion is wasted because the con-rod is directly over the crankshaft.

The pivot sitting between crankshaft and con-rod is also the key to the e3's adaptability. By altering the angle of the pivot, the capacity, and therefore power, of the engine can be changed while it is running.

Mayflower claims that the engine could mean much greater fuel efficiency for a huge variety of vehicles. The engine of a truck could be changed to cope with a full load and then "downsized" as it returns empty to a depot or yard.

Because the e3 engine is based on existing engines, manufacturers should find it easy to work the design into their production lines, said Mayflower chief executive John Simpson.

Over 160 million combustion engines are made every year.

_____

And there you have it. No loss of performance. Improved efficiency and power. Savings on fuel that will make OPEC scream in dismay and cause the price of fuel to drop to the point that people will be feeding petrol to their cats instead of milk.

No hydrogen required. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[hflynn]

My understanding is that the favorite source for Hydrogen - the fuel fuel cells burn - is... gasoline. I'm sure the Saudis would be more than happy to sell us the oil so that we could make the gasoline from which we could extract the hydrogen for fuel cells. And the Japanese could sell us the cars, of course.

It also would be necessary to stage the movement from an oil economy to a hydrogen economy. The gasoline distribution system and your local garage pumping gasoline as a hydrogen source will be absolutely necessary to allow this transition to occur and for your existing combustion engine cars to refuel until replaced. I don't think we will see this technology change for a long, long, long time.

[CollegeRepublican]

In regards to the use of this skateboard design in the snow. There is no reason why they could not raise up the platform to the clearance of 15 inches or more. And the Autonomy car uses 4 electric motors to turn the wheels. This means 4 wheel independent drive. Just like a Hummer. The real problem that auto companies have found with fuel cell cars, besides the cost, is the fact that the "pollution" from the tail pipe of water vapor and in cold temperatures this water freezes and screws up the operation of the fuel cell car.

I have driven a Toyota, Ford, and Honda fuel cell car. They actually have alot of zip to them. I took them around a track at the National Transportation Research Center. Pretty fun to drive, except for that they did not make any noise unless you had the air conditioner on.

In regards to overcoming the infrastructure problem, the government plans to start small fleet operation of fuel cell cars on Military bases and government installations. Then move on to urban fueling stations where there may be several fueling stations in say Chicago, Detroit, and DC. Once established in the cities then they will slowly move to the suburbs, and then rural areas. But you people need to understand that this process will take place over a time span of 25-50 years. There are still many problems to overcome. Hydrogen transportation saftey, cost, production, and infrastructure are some of them. The neat thing is that fuel cells can be made to run on a variety of different fuels. In the time being, yes fuel cells can run on gas, diesel, methanol, ethanol, LNG, CNG, or just straight H2. Matching a fuel cell with a diesel engine could produce a powerful, clean, diesel-hybrid truck. Just because Al Gore wants to ban cars does not mean that we should not look ahead and plan for 50 to 100 years down the road. No one, hopefully, is going to make you drive these cars anytime soon, but we should be prepare for the day when we can. Drive your SUVs, I know that I drive my truck alot. I can afford the gas, but I like to think that I am working to help the USA to get off of the dependance of foriegn oil.

[DB]

Ejector seat?

[Paradox]

I love technology, and new ideas (can I still be a conservative, pweeeze?). I'd consider something like this as an "urban/city" car, to get me around my neighborhood.

The true test will be the market, but ideas culled from projects like this can help all automotive designs. As for a 42 volt electrical system, I believe this may be coming anyways, since (up to a certain point), higher voltages are easier to transmit around the car (thinner wires for the same amount of power, lower weight).

[CollegeRepublican]

There are things like this available for combustion engines today. Variable compression ratio (VCR), heat recovery, turbocharging, homogeneous charge compression iginition (HCCI), but the question is do you want to pay for them. Why should you when gas is cheap?

[MadIvan]

There are things like this available for combustion engines today. Variable compression ratio (VCR), heat recovery, turbocharging, homogeneous charge compression iginition (HCCI), but the question is do you want to pay for them. Why should you when gas is cheap?

I don't think that it would be all that expensive for car companies to make their upcoming models incorporate this technology, and as for why...well to bankrupt Saudi Arabia, of course. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[kinghorse]

This industry is going to "drive" the next tech boom/ economy boom. And it'll come faster as the discovery cycle keeps getting shorter. Sure we are in between tech cycles right now just like we were after we went gaga for the radio(the last boom device to fuel a stock market speculative frenzy back in the 20's). I don't imagine we'll have to wait another 70 years for the next big thing (the internet being the last big thing).

[CollegeRepublican]

...well to bankrupt Saudi Arabia, of course

I guess that is a good enough reason. But as I understand the global oil market, even if we get "our oil" from Mexico, Russia, and South America, the Saudis will still be able to sell their oil to other countries to make up for what we do not buy. Our buying lots of oil will still set the world market price. To think that we will bankrupt Saudi Arabia, if we don't might be wrong headed. I am not an economist, so I might be wrong. But that is how I see it. China will buy from them. The only way to Bankrupt them would be to take over the oil fields or blow them up, not that I have a problem with this.

[MadIvan]

Imagine if, using the engine, the consumption of oil fell by 40%. The laws of supply and demand indicate that the price of oil would fall right through the floor. A general fall in the oil price, and I dare say if the engine is used in the car using countries of Europe and America the glut would be huge, is difficult to avoid. Saudi would be shot dead. They'd be forced to go live in huts again and throwing rocks at the British and American bombers flying overhead with another load of napalm. ;)

Regards, Ivan

[CollegeRepublican]

But the cost of producing Middle East oil is alot lower compared to Russia, Canada, the Gulf, or the North Slope in Alaska. If anyone could survive the lower price of oil it would be the Saudis.