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The Real Murderers: Atheism or Christianity?
Stand to Reason ^ | 1994 | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 08/13/2002 7:59:31 AM PDT by Frapster

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To: That Subliminal Kid
I missed the other two, glad I found this one :)
21 posted on 08/13/2002 10:25:49 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: Frapster
In olden days, pagan peoples would slaughter each other for land. Then in the age empires, nations were exterminated for resisting the god-emperor.

Ancient slaughter was repeated in the west when the mongol hordes conquered Europe.

Christianity introduced widespread religious slaughter to the west but they mostly killed each other, for example the Jews were banished, not killed, by the Inquisition.

But, it was Neitsche's throwing off of all religion and all morality that paved the way for modern mass-murder ala Hitler, et al.

22 posted on 08/13/2002 10:25:52 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: BMCDA; Dimensio
bump
23 posted on 08/13/2002 10:29:43 AM PDT by JediGirl
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To: Frapster
The real murderers?

I'd say those are people who kill other people when it's not in self defense.
24 posted on 08/13/2002 10:36:27 AM PDT by FourtySeven
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To: chance33_98
And what is the base belief which has so often destroyed lives? That one group is superior to another and that the only way to make the world a better place is to destroy the inferior group before they destroy you. We act in self defense against a real or perceived threat and take measures to insure our own survival.

The idea of racial superiority only dates to the 19th century, the word anti-semitism was first published in 1873, it was Czar Nicholas II that commissioned 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' in the early 1800s.

The rise in non-religious (anti-semitism is not religion-based) violence dates to the rise of the western democracies, in olden days the tyrant derived his power from the nobles, the modern politician derives his power from the masses and the masses can't be kept in aristocratic splendor, so excuses must be found. A perpetual scapegoat class must be maintained. Not many of the early 20th century politicans thought that their politics would be made real by the likes of Hitler, et al.

25 posted on 08/13/2002 11:05:31 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Cruising Speed
Thanks for setting that in clearer terms, the coffee is just now spilling through my system :)
26 posted on 08/13/2002 11:08:22 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: Frapster
It was Democrats!! Democrats I tell ya!!!
27 posted on 08/13/2002 11:12:29 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Frapster
And then as far as pederasty goes - that is also gaining ground as an acceptable practice. While I find it completely immoral the subject is an excellent example of what we humans can achieve when we remove God from the equation.

History is rife with 'messiahs' trying to reach the divine through pederasty. There is no compelling reason to believe that morality can only by found through religion.

28 posted on 08/13/2002 11:22:06 AM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Frapster
The statistics that are the result of irreligious genocide stagger the imagination.

Indeed.

Personally, I'd broaden the criticism of Christianity to include religion and its functional equivalents. In the case of theistic religions, the religion is used as a tool to justify one group's slaughter and/or subjugation of another group. With functional equivalents (i.e. substitutes) for religion, such as the personality cults of Stalinism or Maoism, the methods are similar, though aims and motivations might be somewhat different.

One big problem I have with this line of discussion is the use of the argument that those who killed and pillaged using the name of God weren't true Christians. Similarly, Socialists and Communists tend to claim that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al weren't true Socialists or Communists, that they distorted the principles of their political "faith" to further their own ends. Curious.

Regards,
Snidely

29 posted on 08/13/2002 11:30:26 AM PDT by Snidely Whiplash
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To: Cruising Speed
History is rife with 'messiahs' trying to reach the divine through pederasty. There is no compelling reason to believe that morality can only by found through religion.

As the article I posted states - just because some perverted human in the past has used religion to promote their dispicable deeds does not mean they were in any way legitimate representations of that religion if it can be demonstrated that the teachings of that religion are in direct contradiction to the behavior of the individual or groups. You've not proved anything with your statement.

The only things you've successfully illustrated is that mankind is capable of awful acts against humanity and religion does not corner the market on that.

And lastly I would agree that morality cannot be found only in religion because I do not think that religion invented morality.

30 posted on 08/13/2002 11:57:48 AM PDT by Frapster
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To: Snidely Whiplash
One big problem I have with this line of discussion is the use of the argument that those who killed and pillaged using the name of God weren't true Christians. Similarly, Socialists and Communists tend to claim that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, et. al weren't true Socialists or Communists, that they distorted the principles of their political "faith" to further their own ends. Curious.

In response it is important to note that the author rightly points out three things. First - where people are involved the potential for evil becomes greater. No religion or ideology is immune. Secondly - to lump Christianity in with Socialism and Communism is to blindly ignore their significant differences. The author clearly distinguishes between the two and rightly so for they are as different as night and day which leads to the third point. In light of the distinct differences and the numbers discussed in this article it can certainly demonstrated that an absence of God greatly increases the potential for violence against humanity. Where God is present there is a significantly lesser potential for violence. But where man is present violence is surely to happen.

31 posted on 08/13/2002 12:26:29 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
As far as Christianity is practised in the U.S. and the west in general in this modern age, I have no real problems. It is, in a number of ways, far better than what went on before and we are probably in agreement on most things.

However, I think the argument that olden day Christians weren't Christian because they did bad things is very weak. The 'teachings of Christianity' is not a set thing, it has changed dramatically over the course of 2200 years. The medieval Christians who torched heretics believed that they were taking the man's life to save his immortal soul; they were saving him from hell.

32 posted on 08/13/2002 12:58:16 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Frapster
I agree with you 100%. The "religious violence" argument is a liberal scape goat...and needs to be exposed.
33 posted on 08/13/2002 1:10:33 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Cruising Speed
However, I think the argument that olden day Christians weren't Christian because they did bad things is very weak. The 'teachings of Christianity' is not a set thing, it has changed dramatically over the course of 2200 years. The medieval Christians who torched heretics believed that they were taking the man's life to save his immortal soul; they were saving him from hell.

2,200 years? Isn't that number large? Regardless, that's besides the point. In response to your comment - I think God will be the judge of whether the medieval church was following His teachings or not. But based on what I see in scripture I get the strong impression they were seriously misguided.

34 posted on 08/13/2002 1:13:27 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
Christianity predates Jesus of Nazareth by about 200 years.

I agree with you that Christians who torched heretics were misguided, but I disagree that they weren't good Christians.

Jesus taught that loaning money at interest was a mortal sin, today we think that is misguided, but does that make Jesus not a good Christian?

35 posted on 08/13/2002 1:26:24 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: Cruising Speed
Jesus taught that loaning money at interest was a mortal sin, today we think that is misguided, but does that make Jesus not a good Christian?

If that's what Jesus taught then I'd say we're misguided - not him. However, I'll have to ask for a reference as this is the first time I've ever heard Jesus having been attributed with teaching such a thing.

36 posted on 08/13/2002 1:41:45 PM PDT by Frapster
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To: Frapster
I didn't want to argue whether modern Christians are, on the whole, less violent than modern atheists, because they probably are.

I just wanted to make the point that the 'good' Christians of any era were the ones following the dominant doctrines, whether or not we view those doctrines as valid today.

Not all atheists are nihilists, I despise nihilists, they forget they are supported and comforted by the world's greatest Christian state (America is still, I think, a Christian nation, I mean, even the godless democrats invoke God's name when speaking in public) and if they were exposed to their politics made real, they would be the first to scream their heads off.

37 posted on 08/13/2002 2:19:52 PM PDT by Cruising Speed
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To: rdb3
Didn't Stalin say that the murder of one is a tragedy while the murder of millions is a statisic?

I think that it's typically attributed to him, though I don't know if he was the one who said it (I know that it's been misattributed to at least one person, but I don't remember if that person was Stalin).

In any case, you should consider the intent of the statement. A single person's death can be made to sound more tragic than that of millions at once because you can easily lay out the hopes, dreams and plans of a single person whose life was cut short, but it's hard to do that when you've got a million victims to consider. Also, while it's likely that you'll know "one" person who will die, you're not likely to get to know "millions". As such, the death of the one person you know can have a greater impact on you than the deaths of millions whom you've never met.
38 posted on 08/13/2002 3:48:14 PM PDT by Dimensio
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To: Cruising Speed
But I think where I'm struggling in what you're saying (and this may be my struggle entirely) is the use of the term "good." A good Christian is not one who follows the current trend in Biblical interpretation but one who lives in light of God's truth as He interprets it. As I grow older I question lots of conventional approaches to worship in churches today and I finally had to realize that the biggest mistake the modern church makes is to think they have it completely right. This is not to be confused with thinking the church is in error except to the point that it must realize we have not "arrived." Historically each church has had it's form of error - this age is no different. Error is still error and God's way is immutable. I understand what you're saying about the 'good' Christians but I would still argue that they were not good Christians - the good ones may have been as hard to find then as they are now.
39 posted on 08/13/2002 4:01:33 PM PDT by Frapster
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