BG Paul W Tibbets, USAF, Ret: "That's their tough luck for being there."

Today is Hiroshima Day, the anniversary of the first use of a bomb so powerful that it would come to threaten the existence of the human race. Only two such devices have ever been used, but now, a decade after the end of the cold war, the world faces new dangers of nuclear attack - from India, Pakistan, Iraq, al-Qaida, and even the US. Launching a special investigation into nuclear weapons, Paul Tibbets, the man who piloted the Enola Gay on its mission to Japan, tells Studs Terkel why he has no regrets - and why he wouldn't hesitate to use it again

Studs Terkel: We're seated here, two old gaffers. Me and Paul Tibbets, 89 years old, brigadier-general retired, in his home town of Columbus, Ohio, where has lived for many years.

ST: I know. See, I'm 90. So I got you beat by three years. Now we've had a nice lunch, you and I and your companion. I noticed as we sat in that restaurant, people passed by. They didn't know who you were. But once upon a time, you flew a plane called the Enola Gay over the city of Hiroshima, in Japan, on a Sunday morning - August 6 1945 - and a bomb fell. It was the atomic bomb, the first ever. And that particular moment changed the whole world around. You were the pilot of that plane.

PT: My mother. She was Enola Gay Haggard before she married my dad, and my dad never supported me with the flying - he hated airplanes and motorcycles. When I told them I was going to leave college and go fly planes in the army air corps, my dad said, "Well, I've sent you through school, bought you automobiles, given you money to run around with the girls, but from here on, you're on your own. If you want to go kill yourself, go ahead, I don't give a damn." Then Mom just quietly said, "Paul, if you want to go fly airplanes, you're going to be all right." And that was that.

PT: Well, that was Miami, Florida. My dad had been in the real estate business down there for years, and at that time he was retired. And I was going to school at Gaysville, Florida, but I had to leave after two years and go to Cincinnati because Florida had no medical school.

PT: I didn't think that, my father thought it. He said, "You're going to be a doctor," and I just nodded my head and that was it. And I started out that way; but about a year before, I was able to get into an airplane, fly it - I soloed - and I knew then that I had to go fly airplanes.

ST: Now by 1944 you were a pilot - a test pilot on the programme to develop the B-29 bomber. When did you get word that you had a special assignment?

PT: One day [in September 1944] I'm running a test on a B-29, I land, a man meets me. He says he just got a call from General Uzal Ent [commander of the second air force] at Colorado Springs, he wants me in his office the next morning at nine o'clock. He said, "Bring your clothing - your B4 bag - because you're not coming back." Well, I didn't know what it was and didn't pay any attention to it - it was just another assignment.

I got to Colorado Springs the next morning perfectly on time. A man named Lansdale met me, walked me to General Ent's office and closed the door behind me. With him was a man wearing a blue suit, a US Navy captain - that was William Parsons, who flew with me to Hiroshima - and Dr Norman Ramsey, Columbia University professor in nuclear physics. And Norman said: "OK, we've got what we call the Manhattan Project. What we're doing is trying to develop an atomic bomb. We've gotten to the point now where we can't go much further till we have airplanes to work with."

He gave me an explanation which probably lasted 45, 50 minutes, and they left. General Ent looked at me and said, "The other day, General Arnold [commander general of the army air corps] offered me three names." Both of the others were full colonels; I was lieutenant-colonel. He said that when General Arnold asked which of them could do this atomic weapons deal, he replied without hesitation, "Paul Tibbets is the man to do it." I said, "Well, thank you, sir." Then he laid out what was going on and it was up to me now to put together an organisation and train them to drop atomic weapons on both Europe and the Pacific - Tokyo.

ST: Interesting that they would have dropped it on Europe as well. We didn't know that.

PT: My edict was as clear as could be. Drop simultaneously in Europe and the Pacific because of the secrecy problem - you couldn't drop it in one part of the world without dropping it in the other. And so he said, "I don't know what to tell you, but I know you happen to have B-29s to start with. I've got a squadron in training in Nebraska - they have the best record so far of anybody we've got. I want you to go visit them, look at them, talk to them, do whatever you want. If they don't suit you, we'll get you some more." He said: "There's nobody could tell you what you have to do because nobody knows. If we can do anything to help you, ask me." I said thank you very much. He said, "Paul, be careful how you treat this responsibility, because if you're successful you'll probably be called a hero. And if you're unsuccessful, you might wind up in prison."

PT: No, I didn't know anything at that time. But I knew how to put an organisation together. He said, "Go take a look at the bases, and call me back and tell me which one you want." I wanted to get back to Grand Island Nebraska, that's where my wife and two kids were, where my laundry was done and all that stuff. But I thought, "Well, I'll go to Wendover [army airfield, in Utah] first and see what they've got." As I came in over the hills I saw it was a beautiful spot. It had been a final staging place for units that were going through combat crew training, and the guys ahead of me were the last P-47 fighter outfit. This lieutenant-colonel in charge said, "We've just been advised to stop here and I don't know what you want to do... but if it has anything to do with this base it's the most perfect base I've ever been on. You've got full machine shops, everybody's qualified, they know what they want to do. It's a good place."

PT: Well, I had mentally done it before that. I knew right away I was going to get Tom Ferebee [the Enola Gay's bombardier] and Theodore "Dutch" van Kirk [navigator] and Wyatt Duzenbury [flight engineer].

ST: And now you're training. And you're also talking to physicists like Robert Oppenheimer [senior scientist on the Manhattan project].

PT: I think I went to Los Alamos [the Manhattan project HQ] three times, and each time I got to see Dr Oppenheimer working in his own environment. Later, thinking about it, here's a young man, a brilliant person. And he's a chain smoker and he drinks cocktails. And he hates fat men. And General Leslie Groves [the general in charge of the Manhattan project], he's a fat man, and he hates people who smoke and drink. The two of them are the first, original odd couple.

PT: Yeah, but neither one of them showed it. Each one of them had a job to do.

PT: From Dr Ramsey. He said the only thing we can tell you about it is, it's going to explode with the force of 20,000 tons of TNT. I'd never seen 1lb of TNT blow up. I'd never heard of anybody who'd seen 100lbs of TNT blow up. All I felt was that this was gonna be one hell of a big bang.

ST: Twenty thousand tons - that's equivalent to how many planes full of bombs?

PT: Well, I think the two bombs that we used [at Hiroshima and Nagasaki] had more power than all the bombs the air force had used during the war on Europe.

PT: Even though it was still theory, whatever those guys told me, that's what happened. So I was ready to say I wanted to go to war, but I wanted to ask Oppenheimer how to get away from the bomb after we dropped it. I told him that when we had dropped bombs in Europe and North Africa, we'd flown straight ahead after dropping them - which is also the trajectory of the bomb. But what should we do this time? He said, "You can't fly straight ahead because you'd be right over the top when it blows up and nobody would ever know you were there." He said I had to turn tangent to the expanding shockwave. I said, "Well, I've had some trigonometry, some physics. What is tangency in this case?" He said it was 159 degrees in either direction. "Turn 159 degrees as fast as you can and you'll be able to put yourself the greatest distance from where the bomb exploded."

PT: I had dropped enough practice bombs to realise that the charges would blow around 1,500ft in the air, so I would have 40 to 42 seconds to turn 159 degrees. I went back to Wendover as quick as I could and took the airplane up. I got myself to 25,000ft, and I practised turning, steeper, steeper, steeper and I got it where I could pull it round in 40 seconds. The tail was shaking dramatically and I was afraid of it breaking off, but I didn't quit. That was my goal. And I practised and practised until, without even thinking about it, I could do it in between 40 and 42, all the time. So, when that day came...

PT: Yeah. We were in Tinian [the US island base in the Pacific] at the time we got the OK. They had sent this Norwegian to the weather station out on Guam [the US's westernmost territory] and I had a copy of his report. We said that, based on his forecast, the sixth day of August would be the best day that we could get over Honshu [the island on which Hiroshima stands]. So we did everything that had to be done to get the crews ready to go: airplane loaded, crews briefed, all of the things checked that you have to check before you can fly over enemy territory.

General Groves had a brigadier-general who was connected back to Washington DC by a special teletype machine. He stayed close to that thing all the time, notifying people back there, all by code, that we were preparing these airplanes to go any time after midnight on the sixth. And that's the way it worked out. We were ready to go at about four o'clock in the afternoon on the fifth and we got word from the president that we were free to go: "Use 'em as you wish." They give you a time you're supposed to drop your bomb on target and that was 9.15 in the morning , but that was Tinian time, one hour later than Japanese time. I told Dutch, "You figure it out what time we have to start after midnight to be over the target at 9am."

PT: Well, we got going down the runway at right about 2.15am and we took off, we met our rendezvous guys, we made our flight up to what we call the initial point, that would be a geographic position that you could not mistake. Well, of course we had the best one in the world with the rivers and bridges and that big shrine. There was no mistaking what it was.

PT: The airplane has a bomb sight connected to the autopilot and the bombardier puts figures in there for where he wants to be when he drops the weapon, and that's transmitted to the airplane. We always took into account what would happen if we had a failure and the bomb bay doors didn't open: we had a manual release put in each airplane so it was right down by the bombardier and he could pull on that. And the guys in the airplanes that followed us to drop the instruments needed to know when it was going to go. We were told not to use the radio, but, hell, I had to. I told them I would say, "One minute out," "Thirty seconds out," "Twenty seconds" and "Ten" and then I'd count, "Nine, eight, seven, six, five, four seconds", which would give them a time to drop their cargo. They knew what was going on because they knew where we were. And that's exactly the way it worked, it was absolutely perfect.

After we got the airplanes in formation I crawled into the tunnel and went back to tell the men, I said, "You know what we're doing today?" They said, "Well, yeah, we're going on a bombing mission." I said, "Yeah, we're going on a bombing mission, but it's a little bit special." My tailgunner, Bob Caron, was pretty alert. He said, "Colonel, we wouldn't be playing with atoms today, would we?" I said, "Bob, you've got it just exactly right." So I went back up in the front end and I told the navigator, bombardier, flight engineer, in turn. I said, "OK, this is an atom bomb we're dropping." They listened intently but I didn't see any change in their faces or anything else. Those guys were no idiots. We'd been fiddling round with the most peculiar-shaped things we'd ever seen.

So we're coming down. We get to that point where I say "one second" and by the time I'd got that second out of my mouth the airplane had lurched, because 10,000lbs had come out of the front. I'm in this turn now, tight as I can get it, that helps me hold my altitude and helps me hold my airspeed and everything else all the way round. When I level out, the nose is a little bit high and as I look up there the whole sky is lit up in the prettiest blues and pinks I've ever seen in my life. It was just great.

I tell people I tasted it. "Well," they say, "what do you mean?" When I was a child, if you had a cavity in your tooth the dentist put some mixture of some cotton or whatever it was and lead into your teeth and pounded them in with a hammer. I learned that if I had a spoon of ice-cream and touched one of those teeth I got this electrolysis and I got the taste of lead out of it. And I knew right away what it was.

OK, we're all going. We had been briefed to stay off the radios: "Don't say a damn word, what we do is we make this turn, we're going to get out of here as fast as we can." I want to get out over the sea of Japan because I know they can't find me over there. With that done we're home free. Then Tom Ferebee has to fill out his bombardier's report and Dutch, the navigator, has to fill out a log. Tom is working on his log and says, "Dutch, what time were we over the target?" And Dutch says, "Nine-fifteen plus 15 seconds." Ferebee says: "What lousy navigating. Fifteen seconds off!"

PT: Oh yeah. The shockwave was coming up at us after we turned. And the tailgunner said, "Here it comes." About the time he said that, we got this kick in the ass. I had accelerometers installed in all airplanes to record the magnitude of the bomb. It hit us with two and a half G. Next day, when we got figures from the scientists on what they had learned from all the things, they said, "When that bomb exploded, your airplane was 10 and half miles away from it."

PT: You see all kinds of mushroom clouds, but they were made with different types of bombs. The Hiroshima bomb did not make a mushroom. It was what I call a stringer. It just came up. It was black as hell, and it had light and colours and white in it and grey colour in it and the top was like a folded-up Christmas tree.

PT: Pandemonium! I think it's best stated by one of the historians, who said: "In one micro-second, the city of Hiroshima didn't exist."

PT: We're talking 1948 now. I'm back in the Pentagon and I get notice from the chief of staff, Carl Spaatz, the first chief of staff of the air force. When we got to General Spaatz's office, General Doolittle was there, and a colonel named Dave Shillen. Spaatz said, "Gentlemen, I just got word from the president he wants us to go over to his office immediately." On the way over, Doolittle and Spaatz were doing some talking; I wasn't saying very much. When we got out of the car we were escorted right quick to the Oval Office. There was a black man there who always took care of Truman's needs and he said, "General Spaatz, will you please be facing the desk?" And now, facing the desk, Spaatz is on the right, Doolittle and Shillen. Of course, militarily speaking, that's the correct order: because Spaatz is senior, Doolittle has to sit to his left.

Then I was taken by this man and put in the chair that was right beside the president's desk, beside his left hand. Anyway, we got a cup of coffee and we got most of it consumed when Truman walked in and everybody stood on their feet. He said, "Sit down, please," and he had a big smile on his face and he said, "General Spaatz, I want to congratulate you on being first chief of the air force," because it was no longer the air corps. Spaatz said, "Thank you, sir, it's a great honour and I appreciate it." And he said to Doolittle: "That was a magnificent thing you pulled flying off of that carrier," and Doolittle said, "All in a day's work, Mr President." And he looked at Dave Shillen and said, "Colonel Shillen, I want to congratulate you on having the foresight to recognise the potential in aerial refuelling. We're gonna need it bad some day." And he said thank you very much.

Then he looked at me for 10 seconds and he didn't say anything. And when he finally did, he said, "What do you think?" I said, "Mr President, I think I did what I was told." He slapped his hand on the table and said: "You're damn right you did, and I'm the guy who sent you. If anybody gives you a hard time about it, refer them to me."

PT: Second thoughts? No. Studs, look. Number one, I got into the air corps to defend the United States to the best of my ability. That's what I believe in and that's what I work for. Number two, I'd had so much experience with airplanes... I'd had jobs where there was no particular direction about how you do it and then of course I put this thing together with my own thoughts on how it should be because when I got the directive I was to be self-supporting at all times.

On the way to the target I was thinking: I can't think of any mistakes I've made. Maybe I did make a mistake: maybe I was too damned assured. At 29 years of age I was so shot in the ass with confidence I didn't think there was anything I couldn't do. Of course, that applied to airplanes and people. So, no, I had no problem with it. I knew we did the right thing because when I knew we'd be doing that I thought, yes, we're going to kill a lot of people, but by God we're going to save a lot of lives. We won't have to invade [Japan].

PT: Unknown to anybody else - I knew it, but nobody else knew - there was a third one. See, the first bomb went off and they didn't hear anything out of the Japanese for two or three days. The second bomb was dropped and again they were silent for another couple of days. Then I got a phone call from General Curtis LeMay [chief of staff of the strategic air forces in the Pacific]. He said, "You got another one of those damn things?" I said, "Yessir." He said, "Where is it?" I said, "Over in Utah." He said, "Get it out here. You and your crew are going to fly it." I said, "Yessir." I sent word back and the crew loaded it on an airplane and we headed back to bring it right on out to Trinian and when they got it to California debarkation point, the war was over.

ST: One big question. Since September 11, what are your thoughts? People talk about nukes, the hydrogen bomb.

PT: Let's put it this way. I don't know any more about these terrorists than you do, I know nothing. When they bombed the Trade Centre I couldn't believe what was going on. We've fought many enemies at different times. But we knew who they were and where they were. These people, we don't know who they are or where they are. That's the point that bothers me. Because they're gonna strike again, I'll put money on it. And it's going to be damned dramatic. But they're gonna do it in their own sweet time. We've got to get into a position where we can kill the bastards. None of this business of taking them to court, the hell with that. I wouldn't waste five seconds on them.

ST: What about the bomb? Einstein said the world has changed since the atom was split.

PT: Oppenheimer is dead. He did something for the world and people don't understand. And it is a free world.

ST: One last thing, when you hear people say, "Let's nuke 'em," "Let's nuke these people," what do you think?

PT: Oh, I wouldn't hesitate if I had the choice. I'd wipe 'em out. You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: "You've killed so many civilians." That's their tough luck for being there.

ST: By the way, I forgot to say Enola Gay was originally called number 82. How did your mother feel about having her name on it?

PT: Well, I can only tell you what my dad said. My mother never changed her expression very much about anything, whether it was serious or light, but when she'd get tickled, her stomach would jiggle. My dad said to me that when the telephone in Miami rang, my mother was quiet first. Then, when it was announced on the radio, he said: "You should have seen the old gal's belly jiggle on that one."

``The United States government has no right to force Pax Americana on the rest of us, or to unilaterally determine the fate of the world,'' Akiba said.

Dear Mr. Akiba,

As one of the losers, you are fortunate to be allowed to express an opinion.
Particularly since Imperial Japan was intent on unilaterally determining the fate of asia, and ultimately ????

And brutality has many faces; the ones Japan used in the rape of Manchuria and Nanking were infinitely more personally sadistic, brutal and inhumane.

Perhaps you should dwell on that, and practice some real humility.

Actually, the Russians occupied a lot more than that. At the end of the war, they occupied the southern half of Sakhalin Island and ALL of the Kurile Islands which had belonged to Japan. The Americans had troops on the border between China and Russia to prevent Russia from occupying China and Japan?? What the heck are you talking about? In point of fact Russia did get the areas of Communist China which were occupied by Japan. They occupied all of Manchuria and Port Arthur to boot. They then put this territory to good use as a sanctuary for Mao's Red Army where it was equipped with the tanks, artillery and other weapons captured from the 41 Japanese divisions which had been occupying the north of China. After Mao tookover in 1949, Stalin ceded the territory back to China.

In any case, what you ignore is that had we accepted the surrender of the Japanese government which had overthrown Tojo and was elected on a platform of peace in the spring of 1945, the Russians would never have been able to attack Japan, occupy northern China or northern Korea. As a result, Mao's Red Army would not have had a sanctuary nor would they have had sufficient arms to beat the Nationalists and takeover mainland China. Accordingly, Mao and his Communist guerillas would have never won the Chinese civil war and China would have never been Communist and would be a strong democratic ally under the Nationalists to this very day!!

In fact, China would have been a powerful ally against the Soviets during the Cold War which accordingly might have ended sooner. The benefits to achieving an earlier end to the war and saving hundreds of thousands of lives would have been considerable not merely to the US, but to the 1.3 billion Chinese who would be living free today. I just have to laugh when I am the one called the historical revisionist when all of the facts are on my side at least on this issue. Mao simply could not have won without Russian occupation of Manchuria. Had the Russians not occupied it, it would have been the Christian led Nationalists, not the Communists that accepted the surrender of 41 Japanese divisions with their tanks, artillery and aircraft.

Mao's Red Army would have been crushed or forced to flee to western China at best. Of course, had China not been Communist, than the demise of the USSR would have truly meant the death of Communism. Oh, did I mention that there would have been no Korea or Vietnam. I'm sure we all know brave men and family members who died in those no win wars. Do you even know how blessed we would have been had we accepted Japan's surrender well in advance of the Soviet DOW on Japan on August 8th? Sometimes good acts do not go unrewarded and bad acts are not without severe consequences as was undoubtedly the case here for our great and good country and for the cause of freedom.

I think Rightwing2 is spot-on with this elegant, succinct belief: the killing of innocents is always morally wrong.

On a personal level, I agree. Have at it.
On a cultural level in a free society, as long ago as the Greek city-states, it is a collective decision.

Doesn't matter the place, the time, the circumstances.
It certainly does.

It's wrong and we should not be a party to such barbarism.
On a personal level you are right again; you may curl up and die any time you wish.

When we embrace the madness, we become mad ourselves.
That is arguable.
What is not is that when we ignore it we become dead.
Again, a personal choice you may feel free to make.

Spare me the "love your brutal enemy or 'I'll kill you'"

Is it too late to send Tibbets on another mission?

Yeah. Right. Say, here is a picture of a little Japanese girl on the main river in the center of the Hiroshima Memorial Park last night, lighting a candle boat and saying Bhuddist prayers for the civilians killed. Maybe we could target her, with Tibbitts at the controls. Why that's great. Just great. Think we could get her, too? /s

We won the war. They lost. Two bombs were dropped. Enough bombs were dropped. Join the 21st century and take off the war paint. Unless you are prepared to be the first one to go into battle and be strapped to one of the bombs to prove your point.

Turning the other cheek is a profoundly personal choice. Institutionalizing it, or attempting to, is terminally offensive and presumptuous.

The only one talking about turning the other cheek is me for being falsely accused of being some liberal historical revisionist, which is about as far from the truth as could be. World War Two was a just war which was not entirely justly fought by the US and Britain. It goes without saying that it was not justly fought by the Germans and Japanese. We could have ended the war quicker and saved hundreds of thousands of lives had we accepted the Japanese conditional surrender in May 1945 instead of accepting the same (conditional) surrender terms in August 1945 after Russia had occupied northern China, northern Korea and northern Japan.

We would have won the Cold War a lot faster as well without a Communist controlled China to worry about that was an indirect result of our foolish policy of our stupid policy of accepting nothing less than Japan's unconditional surrender--a policy perpetrated by a couple of worthless immoral liberal Democrap Presidents--FDR and Truman. Perhaps a conservative Republican President would have had the moral forsight to do the right thing and accept an earlier Japanese surrender.

Oh, no doubt that the Japanese government wanted to make children attack American troops. My mother (not an in-law) and her peers decided, after years of listening to government lies about Japan "winning the war," that they would not participate in such wrongdoing. I didn't say it didn't happen; I simply said there were Japanese citizens who vehemently opposed the notion.

My apoligies for mistaking your mother for your mother-in-law (or vice-versa). No doubt there were those Japanese who were pretty fed up by 1945. But, as you yourself continued ...

Would they have been arrested, detained, perhaps even killed by their government? Most certainly. Did they choose to make a principled stand against a policy they thought was wrong? Most certainly.

So their own government would have "arrested, detained, perhaps even killed" them? I say their lives, and countless others, were saved by the atomic bombings. I say that on balance, winning the war in the fashion we chose was not an immoral act. Please note that I do not claim it is moral, just not immoral. General Sherman's (real) quote is more apt now than ever, "War is all hell."

Could you explain exactly how does one wage a moral war?

In order to wage a moral war, there are two requirements that the war itself be just and that the war be justly fought. In order for the war to be just, it must be fought in self-defense or defense of another. In order for it to be justly fought by a country, that country must never directly target innocent civlians with the weapons of war. Innocent civilians killed by mistake or "Collatoral damage" is acceptable and not immoral, but the deliberate killing or mass killing of innocent civilians is as immoral if done by nuclear or conventional bombing as it would be if you lined them up and shot them one by one with a firing squad. Operation Desert Storm is a great example of a just war, justly fought. The NATO bombing of Kosovo on the other hand is an example of an unjust war, unjustly fought (by the US), but then again it was perpetrated by one of those worthless, immoral liberal Democrap Presidents I've been talking about, wasn't it?

And, by the way, regarding the assertion that it is morally wrong in ALL cases where a civilian is hurt/killed, I offer a no-kidding real-world example why that doesn't wash:

19 January, 1991, flight of 8 F-16's over Baghdad, SAM and AAA all over the place (The HUD video is breathtaking—and you will not see it on CNN):
-Number 1 (lead) is shot down and ejects (becomes POW), and Number 3 is flying his butt off, jinking all over the place to avoid being hit by Iraqi missiles and bullets.
-These Iraqi missiles come close, even pass by close enough you can see them on the HUD video—that means REAL close.
-The bomb load is heavy, and airspeed is bleeding off pretty darned quick (you need airspeed to stay alive, to fly out of there).
-As Number 3 loses airspeed he has to descend to get some more knots to keep flying. . .unless. . .
-Number 3 jettisons his bombs so he may get his airspeed back and keep his maneuverability, thus stay alive.
-The jettisoned bombs fall on the suburbs of Baghdad.

Now, are you saying those civilians hurt/killed by the bombs was the result of an immoral act?

Are you saying that there is no justification for injuring those civilians?

Before you answer, consider this: If Number 3 had not jettisoned his bombs, he most assuredly would have been shot down and the flaming wreckage (bombs and all) would have fallen on the same suburb.

The morality of certain actions are subjective and contextual, and by using the world "ALL' in any discussion of warfare is a serious mistake.

Re the killing of innocents is always wrong: "On a personal level, I agree. Have at it. On a cultural level in a free society, as long ago as the Greek city-states, it is a collective decision."

Do you believe this on every touchstone, Publius? If you believe a fetus is a child, and an innocent, are you willing to shrug off abortion as "a collective decision"? When American children are killed in attacks by our enemies, are those deaths tragic, but culturally insignificant?

I have turned this debate 'round and 'round for a few years now, and this discussion on Free Republic certainly helps sharpen the issue for all of us.

Beginning in September 1944, the Japanese government began quietly searching for a way to peace beginning with an approach to the Swedish Minister in Tokyo to sound out the Allies on terms of peace. Both this and another overture in March 1945 came to nought.

The civilian government was searching for a way out. And there was a reason why they were doing it quietly - the Imperial Japanese army, which actually held the reigns of power (the navy, having lost all its assets, had ceased being a player in the struggle for internal control), would have assassinated any civilian figure who openly advocated reaching an accord with the allies.

Ironically, the bomb provided a reason for the civilians to sue for peace. Without it the army would never have surrendered. It could be said the bomb saved Japan.

Read John Tolands Rising Sun in the Pacific for an idea of how difficult it was for the civilians to get the surrender notice out, even IN SPITE of the two bombs having been dropped.

but the deliberate killing or mass killing of innocent civilians is as immoral if done by nuclear or conventional bombing as it would be if you lined them up and shot them one by one with a firing squad.

The elegant and puerile simplicity of it is breathtaking.
"... as immoral as if you lined them up and shot them one by one...
Put that statement before a first grader, and he would not take long to point out that "one by one" makes is possible to make the easy moral choice.

When your definition of a "moral choice" is the operating imperative, the only alternatives are the difficult moral choice, or to do nothing.

If you can't see the obvious difference...

Have a nice day.

When American children are killed in attacks by our enemies, are those deaths tragic, but culturally insignificant?

This question is relevant.
My position is that it is both tragic and culturally significant.
I may wish it could not happen, but must accept that it does.

Assuming of course, that those children are not on a school bus specifically targetted by Muslim Mass Murderers.
Then it becomes an entirely different issue.

Let's maintain focus, shall we?

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