Posted on 07/31/2002 5:20:31 AM PDT by fporretto
Each abridgement of liberty has been used to justify further ones. Scholars of political systems have noted this repeatedly. The lesson is not lost on those whose agenda is total power. They perpetually strain to wedge the camel's nose into the tent, and not for the nose's sake.
Many a fine person will concede to you that "liberty is all very well in theory," follow that up with "but," and go on from there to tabulate aspects of life that, in his opinion, the voluntary actions of responsible persons interacting in freedom could never cope with. Oftentimes, free men and free markets have coped with his objections in the recent past, whether he knows it or not. You could point this out to him, provide references and footnotes, and still not overcome his resistance, for it does not depend on the specifics he cited.
His reluctance to embrace freedom is frequently based on fear, the power-monger's best friend.
Fantasist Robert Anton Wilson has written: "The State is based on threat." And so it is. After all, the State, no matter how structured, is a parasitic creature. It seizes our wealth and constrains our freedom, gives vague promises of performance in return, and then as often as not fails to deliver. No self-respecting people would tolerate such an institution if it did not regard the alternatives as worse.
The alternatives are seldom discussed in objective, unemotional terms. Sometimes they are worse, by my assessment, but why should you accept my word for it?
Let it be. The typical American, when he opts for State action over freedom, isn't acting on reasoned conviction, but on fear of a negative result. Sometimes the fear, which is frequently backed by a visceral revulsion, is so strong that no amount of counterevidence can dissolve it, including the abject failure of State action.
We've had a number of recent examples of this. To name only two prominent ones:
In either of the above cases, could we but take away the fear factor, there would be essentially no argument remaining.
Fear, like pain, can be useful. When it engenders caution, it can prolong life and preserve health. Conservatives in particular appreciate the value of caution. The conservative mindset is innately opposed to radical, destabilizing change, and history has proved such opposition to be wise.
However, a fear that nothing can dispel is a pure detriment to him who suffers it.
Generally, the antidote to fear is knowledge: logically sound arguments grounded in unshakable postulates and well buttressed by practical experience. Once one knows what brings a particular undesirable condition about, one has a chance of changing or averting it. The great challenge is to overcome fears so intense that they preclude a rational examination of the thing feared.
Where mainstream conservatives and libertarians part company is along the disjunction of their fears. The conservative tends to fear that, without State involvement in various social matters, the country and its norms would suffer unacceptably. Areas where such a fear applies include drug use, abortion, international trade, immigration, cultural matters, sexual behavior, and public deportment. The libertarian tends to fear the consequences of State involvement more greatly. He argues to the conservative that non-coercive ways of curbing the things he dislikes, ways that are free of statist hazards, should be investigated first, before turning to the police.
I call myself a libertarian, but I can't discount conservative fears in all cases -- especially where the libertarian approach to some social ill involves a major change to established ways. Radical transformations of society don't have a rosy history.
Yet conservatives, too, could be more realistic, and could show more confidence in the ideals they strive to defend. As Thomas Sowell has written in discussing the War On Drugs, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. No use being a damned fool about it."
The past two decades, starting roughly with Ronald Reagan's ascent to national prominence, have laid the foundations for an enduring coalition between freedom-oriented libertarian thinkers and virtue-and-stability-oriented conservative thinkers. Each side needs to learn greater confidence in the other, if we are to establish the serious exchange of ideas and reservations, free of invective and dismissive rhetoric, as an ongoing process. Such confidence must include sufficient humility to allow for respect for the other side's fears -- for an unshakable confidence in one's own rightness is nearly always misplaced. There is little to learn from those who agree with you, whereas much may be learned from those who disagree.
Really? Who decides the limits?
Though I adamantly disagree with your stance on the WOD ... I believe you ARE right on this one
Right on AM !!!!!
Stands up to give rousing round of applause
You know, it's interesting that you--a libertarian--are arguing that states don't have the right to govern themselves as sovereign entities. In fact, you stated earlier--correctly--that the 14th Amendment prevents the states from taking life, liberty or property without due process of law. Serious libertarians point to this clause as the main reason we aren't as "free" as we should be. Under the 14th Amendment incorporation doctrine, the Feds can effectively negate all kinds of state sovereignty. So, you're using exactly the post-Civil war Amendment that libertarians hate the most to prove your point. (???)
By the way--you never answered my original question: if liberty has limits, who decides the limits? Hint--you have two choices.
No they are not. They are unreasonable.
There are unreasonable Democrats, unreasonable Republicans, unreasonable Libertarians, unreasonable Christinans ......
But you can't claim it is REASONABLE for ANY ONE to wish death on another.
Why would I lie? - And why do you not care? - Strange, non-conservative reaction.
You know, it's interesting that you--a libertarian--are arguing that states don't have the right to govern themselves as sovereign entities.
I'm not making that argument, as you are well aware. - Just that states must conform their law to honor our constitutional rights, as the feds must.
In fact, you stated earlier--correctly--that the 14th Amendment prevents the states from taking life, liberty or property without due process of law. Serious libertarians point to this clause as the main reason we aren't as "free" as we should be.
You have a lot of serious problems with what you IMAGINE 'serious' libertarians think. - Examine your conscience for the truth.
Under the 14th Amendment incorporation doctrine, the Feds can effectively negate all kinds of state sovereignty.
Not if the states fight it.
-- They never have. -- This is a political failure, not one of the constitution.
So, you're using exactly the post-Civil war Amendment that libertarians hate the most to prove your point. (???)
See above on your imagination, - and give some thought to 'moral' debate tactics.
I can't speak for people in the "Libertarian" party, but I am a (small l) libertarian (one who believes in the libertarian principles but not necssarily a member of the "Libertarian" party), and I don't have any such desire for "freedom from God". You are making sweeping generalizations.
If you can't tell that killing people is unreasonable, I can't debate any point with you. Singer is an idiot.
"Pictures of children chained to machines or working in coal mines at age 8 will sour people pretty quick on laissez-faire capitalism." </I
Mark Bahner says ...
Yeah, right. Like that's going to happen. /i>
I tend to agree with HumanaeVitae ... I feel that business left totally unchecked will resort to whatever makes the most profit and especially what makes them competitive. If a company is out performing another, the lagging company HAS to adopt the same policies of the better company or cease to exist. It IS the natural evolution of business. If that means using cheap child labor as in the past and presently illegal or using cheap offshore foreign or American worker displacing H-1B labor onshore as is today, the company WILL resort to it if only to survive. The adage ... "if you don't like your job work somewhere else" is woefully naive especially in a total "laissez faire" business environment sans fair business laws e.i. monopoly restraint. A dissenting worker is not going to get a job anywhere in this "laissez faire" environment because the companies will have evolved into a few giant conglomerates with shared data bases about such "disruptive" people. This dissenting worker also will not be able NOT start his own business because all other competing businesses will be or will have been eliminated by use of one or another presently outlawed business practice. To think that businesses in a free for all environment will NOT resort to whatever makes them the most profit ( which means ANYTHING they can get away with) is the height of naivety ... IMHO
I didn't like your arrogant attack on the author of this article, as you wrapped it in your self-described 'libertarian' view.
You accused him of a personal attack when he replied to another particiapant on this thread.
The author, in fact, did no such thing.
What the author did was cordially explain the political downside of the intransient position the other poster was advocating.
He did not accuse the other "Libertarian" of actually being "an arrogant, self-righteous, dangerous fool."
He merely explained how others would perceive his attitude.
It is YOU who owe the author of this article an apology for your unjustified personal attack.
I agree. However I believe in todays hi-tech technology job market, employers can't find enough "qualified" people. They are making all kinds of employee benefits to attract the brightest and best so they can compete.
In manual unskilled labor, perhaps you are right. But this does not apply to companies like Microsoft.
Sir ... I am a highly trained, highly skilled, highly experienced, and highly educated Silicon Valley engineer. I along with a great many of my collegues are now and have been laid-off and unemployed. I personally have been out of work in my industry for 6 months. So your above statement may be true for other industries BUT I will assure you that that not the way it is in the electronics industry
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