Retired Airline Pilot sues NTSB for "Zoom-climb" data

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm ^ | 7/27/02 | John Fiorentino

[JohnFiorentino]

Retired airline Pilot Capt. Ray Lahr has brought suit against the NTSB for release of the data pertaining to the alleged "zoom-climb" by TWA800. NTSB has stated that this event was what the hundreds of witnesses observed prior to the TWA800 explosion.

You can view the amended complaint in it's entirety here:

http://www.twa800.com/lahr/lahr-amended.htm

[Rokke]

OK, I have a better idea what your point is. Now, explain why any of your statements pertain to me and the correspondance you and I have had. I thought we were talking about "zoom climbs".

[FormerLurker]

"When you fly a helicopter at 120 knots over North Vietnam in the iron triangle - in the most heavily defended airspace in the history of warfare - you see a lot of missiles - you see a lot of flak - and I did - I saw a bunch of it - I know what it looks like. My purpose in being here tonight is to tell you that what I saw explode in the sky on July 17, 1996 was military ordnance... We're here is to say it's no accident - somebody shot this aircraft down"

Major Fred Meyer
March 12, 1998

From Eyewitness Meyer Speaks to the Granada Forum

[Asmodeus]

The following includes both Meyer's interview by the NTSB and his later presentation to the Granada Forum.

TWA Flight 800 - Witness Frederick Meyer

[Asmodeus]

LSoft Flight 800 Forum
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996
From: Michael Davias
[excerpt][quote]
cite from Sunday NY Times of 7/21/96)
A US military official said yesterday he saw a flash of light, similar to a shooting star, cross the planes path when TWA Flight 800 jet crashed. The pilot was on helicopter patrol on Wednesday night when the jumbo jet exploded.

"I know the strike of a missile. What I saw didn't look at all like a missile," said Commander Fritz Meyer of the 106th Rescue Wing of the New York Air National Guard. "Our three man crew saw the same thing. A flash of red - orange light, characteristic of a shooting star", he said. "Then we saw a small explosion followed by a large explosion and a ball of fire fell into the sea".
[end quote]

[FormerLurker]

From your link..

As I looked out of the front of the aircraft scanning for the Cessna, I saw a streak of light - right there (points to diagram) - moving very rapidly from my left-center farther to my left. It was red-orange in color - it resembled the path of a shooting star that you would see at night. You just go out on a clear night - put your head back and if you're patient enough you are going to see meteors coming through the atmosphere - shooting stars. They move very rapidly - they leave a trail of light. That's exactly what it looked like except it was red-orange in color and I saw it in broad daylight and one does not see shooting stars in broad daylight. There was a break - where it stopped - and then for an instant I saw nothing - and then suddenly right there I saw an explosion - high velocity explosion - military ordnance! - looked like flak in the sky - and I've seen a lot of flak - ours and theirs. It was military ordnance! A second and a half to two seconds later - farther to the left but down - I saw a flash once again - high velocity explosion - brilliant white light - like the old fashioned flashbulbs that we used to get one picture out of it and then it was gone - brilliant white light. A second and a half to two seconds after that - farther to the left but even lower - I saw, but I'm not certain, either one or two nearly concentric detonations - da da (sic) - and from those detonations emanated this hugh, slowly forming, low velocity explosion fireball.

I'm sorry Asmodeau, but I don't buy your assertion that Major Meyer doesn't know what he's talking about and you know better....

[FormerLurker]

The Press Conference
Now I went out to give aid as I told you and found no survivors and went back to my unit and went home that night. The next day at 4:00 pm we gave a press conference and some reporters came to base and we sat in an auditorium on the base and I came down from my office to participate in this press conference in which the crew of the C130 and the rest or my crew and two para rescue men who had seen a light in the sky were all called in to tell what we saw to the news media. When I went into that press conference the public affairs officer from my unit gave me three criteria - he said "Do not speculate" - "Do not give your opinion" - and "Do not discuss the condition of the bodies. So those were the conditions under which we held that press conference. I described my streak of light and everything to the people there. I walked out of that room about an hour and fifteen minutes later and a fellow was watching a television in a room across the hall from the briefing room and he said: "Hey, I just saw you on television - Peter Jennings says you said it was a missile". Well all hell broke loose because I had apparently violated the parameters of the press conference. The AJ of the NY State Air Guard was on the phone with me and wanted to know why I did that. I told him: "General the entire press conference was videotaped - look at the videotape - I never said it was a missile". Well the media had picked it up as a missile and therefore I was given the task to then go back to the media and tell them "I didn't say it was a missile". So I went back - at that time the next day - two days later - the Friday after the accident - I went back to the coast guard station at East Moriches where I gave in excess of 40 interviews to news media crews in which I told them that I did not say it was a missile. They, of course, reported 'Pilot on the scene says it was not a missile' (Laughter). There came a period in here where we decided - and it was a mutual decision - it was not an order - that we were just going to stop talking to the media because no matter what we told them they screwed it up. We stopped talking to the media (applause). We also decided that we were witnesses to an accident - that there were pros in the NTSB who were going to come in and do a first rate job. And we waited for a year for those pros to do a first rate job and we don't believe they did which is why we are here.

[FormerLurker]

TWA 800 Eyewitness Video Recreation

[JohnFiorentino]

Excellent post!...........Perhaps Assmo can perform some of his daunted "expert witness analysis" on it!

[FormerLurker]

If you haven't yet seen the video available in the thread that I linked in post #447, you really should check it. It has an outstanding analysis by Commander Donaldson, along with video recreations of what two different witnesses saw...

[FormerLurker]

That should have said, "you really should check it out"

[Asmodeus]

John Fiorentino - Reply #28 to this thread:
"You will also find here on this thread, the term 'tin-foil' hats, applied to EVERYONE who disagrees with the official conclusion. A standard MO for the professional disinformationalist." [emphasis added - caps yours]

"Disinformationalists" - Tinfoil hats' shorthand for "government agents engaged in the felonious criminal coverup of the truth about TWA 800".

Nobody tossing that accusation around for the last 6 years has produced one shred of supporting evidence. And that includes you.

It's an accusation certain to incite suspicion, fear and hatred of "disinformationalists" among some of the readers and it's only common sense that, with all the kooks and nuts there are in forums and chat rooms on the internet, such accusations may incite one or more of them to take the law into their own hands and "deal with" or "eliminate the problem".

Dan Pride - August 5 2002, 1:00 PM
[quote]
It could be one of two things:1) You are erroniously depending on the timeliness and diligence of government employees to do their job 2) You are actually one of the many disinformationalists in the intelligence agencies that spend their time and our tax dollars polluting the well (and the web) with bogus issues, lies, and misdirection. The recent claims of no pentagon plane are a good example of this absurd exercise. Chemtrails are another. (It may have worked in Ecuador but americans are getting more and more savy).

Personally, I think all disinformationalists should be publically flogged, their damage to our political system is incalcualable.

Yahoo TWA800 forum
Fri, 24 Aug 2001
[excerpt]
Jack, I am excluded from posting now from the forum I owned but gave to Jack Seaman, the head of the victim's families organization. I trust Jack S. the same as I trust you. And Dr. Swoebel on the USS Iowa coverup. The sound study is a legitimate scientific concern, but not questioning the obvious coverup indicates you are a scientific whore the same as Dr. George Biz is. And Grassley. And others. Until you have questioned the coverup, you are as guilty of the same crime as George is and Elmer, Grassley, Tobin and others. You have committed the same crime and should be removed from society for it. Or snuffed. Both of you know you deserve life imprisonment for this terrible crime against humanity. You deserve it. Stan
[end quote]

[Asmodeus]

John Fiorentino to FormerLurker:
"Excellent post!...........Perhaps Assmo can perform some of his daunted "expert witness analysis" on it!"

I already did when I rubbed his nose in The "Missile Witnesses" Myth.

Now, why don't you explain your following comments to him and the rest of the readers too and stop trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth.

Yahoo twa800 forum
From: "John Fiorentino"
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 4:18 pm
[excerpt][quote][emphasis added]
However, based on Meyer's statements, I don't believe he witnessed the IE. Fl. 800 didn't explode in a MF at 13000+, the MF was somewhere 7500-8500ft. Look at his timeline. Please explain, HOW he could have witnessed the IE?. [end quote]

Yahoo TWA800 forum - April 12, 2002
From: John Fiorentino
Subject: Re: [twa800] Kabofovic revisited
[excerpt][quote][emphasis added]
Most here are convinced a "missile" did the dirty deed. I'm not, not yet at least. The initial assessment was "bomb". I thought so to. I still do. [end quote]

[FormerLurker]

I already did when I rubbed his nose in The "Missile Witnesses" Myth.

You did WHAT? You're silly webpage does nothing but try to popup advertisements for everything under the sun. You can't really be serious if you think you "rubbed my nose" in anything other than unsolicited ads, which I proceeded to print out and use to pick up my dogs doo doo outside the house.

So you can say, if anything, that I "rubbed your website" into dog crap...

[lavaroise]

I have not seen that front spar. Was that a wing spar that snapped?

[FormerLurker]

BTW Asmodeus, have you bothered to look at the eyewitness video recreation that I posted a link to in post #447?

[Asmodeus]

From: Ray Lahr - raylahr@charter.net
"I read your message posted on www.twa.com on 8-25-00. I am still fighting that battle. In fact I have a lawsuit pending against the NTSB in an effort to obtain its data and calculations used for the zoom-climb. The complaint that I filed is on the www.twa800.com website. I am looking for all the help that I can get. Do you have anything that might be helpful such as the statement you quoted? To be used in court it requires and accompanying signed affidavit. Captain Ray Lahr, retired airline pilot."

That's the Donaldson brothers TWA 800 "shootdown" website. It's forum, in its present incarnation, commences with Bob Donaldson's "welcome" posting on October 1 2000.

Dr. Gregory Harrison" is a Board Member of ARAP and it appears from his bio that he can easily locate a bonafide expert witness report analyst to review and prepare a report on The "Missile Witnesses" Myth along with the statements of the 100+ Flight 800 witnesses reportedly interviewd by Cdr. Donaldson that still haven't been made available to the public. Perhaps the tinfoils who have been alleging for six years that they "want to know the truth" will send Ray Lahr a copy of this posting at his above email address to send on to Dr. Harrison for that purpose.

[Asmodeus]

Pop up ads have been everywhere on the internet for years. Why in the world haven't you tried something like this long before now?

It's interesting how many of you tinfoil hats will look for any flimsy excuse to avoid coming to grips with the reality that you don't know what you're talking about.

Tinfoil hats - "conspiracy theorists"

[FormerLurker]

Asmodeus wrote:
From: Ray Lahr - raylahr@charter.net "I read your message posted on www.twa.com on 8-25-00. I am still fighting that battle. In fact I have a lawsuit pending against the NTSB in an effort to obtain its data and calculations used for the zoom-climb. The complaint that I filed is on the www.twa800.com website. I am looking for all the help that I can get. Do you have anything that might be helpful such as the statement you quoted? To be used in court it requires and accompanying signed affidavit. Captain Ray Lahr, retired airline pilot."

Just who is Ray Lahr supposed to be talking to here? You don't mention that at all, and upon searching the website, there ISN'T anything dated 8-25-00. You provide no link or information as to exactly what Ray Lahr was referring to. In fact, numerous letters of Captain Lahr's ARE linked at that site. I'll provide a link to one of them..

FOIA Appeal to NTSB General Manager from Capt. Ray Lahr

Asmodeus wrote:
That's the Donaldson brothers TWA 800 "shootdown" website. It's forum, in its present incarnation, commences with Bob Donaldson's "welcome" posting on October 1 2000.

And just what exactly are you trying to say here?

Asmodeus wrote:
Dr. Gregory Harrison" is a Board Member of ARAP and it appears from his bio that he can easily locate a bonafide expert witness report analyst to review and prepare a report on The "Missile Witnesses" Myth along with the statements of the 100+ Flight 800 witnesses reportedly interviewd by Cdr. Donaldson that still haven't been made available to the public.

That's a rather long winded sentence, don't you think? Exactly where are pulling the name of Dr. Harrison from? Why are you even mentioning his name? Trying to confuse by throwing out names as if they support your opinion?

BTW Asmodeus, Dr. Harrison is a FIRE SAFETY ENGINEER SPECIALIZING IN FLAMMABLE LIQUIDS. He's with ARAP to provide expertise in the flammability of jet fuel and investigate the ignition source of the CWT explosion. Does he even know that you're associating him with analyzing eyewitness statements? And does he know that you are trying to attribute him to your website, where his name is not even mentioned anywhere at all? He might just appreciate an email to fill him in on what you're up to....

You link his resume, which I'll post again here for all to see. Dr. Harrison is a FIRE SAFETY ENGINEER, in case you try to say he's not...

Dr. Gregory Harrison

Asmodeus wrote:
Perhaps the tinfoils who have been alleging for six years that they "want to know the truth" will send Ray Lahr a copy of this posting at his above email address to send on to Dr. Harrison for that purpose.

1. Knock it off with the "tinfoil" comments bud, it doesn't furthur your argument, but only makes you look stupid.
2. Are you saying that you're going to send a copy of your confusing and nebulous post to Captain Lahr? Is that supposed to scare him, or impress us?
3. Get a life.

[FormerLurker]

Pop up ads have been everywhere on the internet for years.

So have viruses, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. You don't furthur your desire to appear professional by peddling everything under the sun on a webpage devoted to your pseudo-scientific theories..

It's interesting how many of you tinfoil hats will look for any flimsy excuse to avoid coming to grips with the reality that you don't know what you're talking about.

It's interesting that you avoid the hard questions, such as that posed to you in my previous post where I asked if you had watched the eyewitness recreation video yet. You've conveniently avoided that topic, as you don't know what YOU are talking about. Your version of reality is that which you DESIRE to have happened, not what actually DID happen.

Tinfoil hats - "conspiracy theorists"

You know what you can do with your nearest roll of Reynolds.