GOLD PLUMMETS - SPOT CHART

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html ^

[Fitzcarraldo]

Source: www.kitco.com

[Travis McGee]

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."

[Deuce]

But I get suspicious when someone claims that J.P. Morgan put itself into a position to bankrupt the known Universe because of gold derivatives, and then offers to sell me gold, allegedly at a discount.

Here's the problem. You don't understand the allegation. Let me be more accurate:

Someone has developed substantial evidence that JP Morgan is manipulating gold for it's own benefit in an environment where it can expect to be bailed out if things go wrong.

[Poohbah]

Your implication is that rather than independently evaluate the facts as best you can, you, instead, decide whom to trust.

I'm sorry you're not able to understand the concept of "pecuniary interest."

Apparently, you believe the sources with a vested interest in keeping the price of gold down over those who have a vested interest in moving the price up.

No, I don't believe either side. But the fact that you opted for a personal attack indicates that (a) you have a vested interest in the price of gold moving up and (b) you don't have a solid argument to make.

So a 119 page report, containing substantial research on the GATA site, can just be dismissed, unread.

I will gladly read it and comment on it. However, you must agree to pay my independent consulting fee. That fee is $150 an hour, with an 80-hour minimum billing period. (I have things to do and a finite amount of time to do them in; you must make it worth my while up front. If you're right, then you're going to make an [expletive deleted] fortune Real Soon Now, and the consulting fee would be pocket change.)

As someone with no axe to grind,

Bravo Sierra-your personal attack demonstrates otherwise.

I feel the weight of evidence is on the side of manipulation.

Ah, you "feel" this to be true. Not that you "THINK" it to be true. Interesting choice of words.

But I will look at the opposite side. Can you point me to ANY source that supports the unfettered market theory?

You are making a positive assertion. The burden of proof is on you. All I've seen from you is arm-waving, not solid evidence.

Or are we supposed to just take it for granted because that side just ignores the allegation.

No. If you're saying there is manipulation, then you are VOLUNTARILY taking on the burden of proving the existence of said manipulation.

I guess those accused of manipulation recognize that their power, clout, prestige, and special privilege will protect them.

???????

They expect that their silence, alone, says, to the believing public "How can anyone think we would even consider manipulating the markets".

One more time, for possible penetration into your brain: you are making the affirmative case, you are assuming the burden of proof.

[connectthedots]

That's a "plummet"?...

While I am certainly no fan of gold as an investment, a $10-15 drop over a day or two is not a plummet; just as a 170 gain in the Dow is not 'shooting up'.

[Jason_b]

"This is a major reason the metal should not be monetized."

The founding fathers thought differently. Roger Sherman was responsible for this one being in, but they all agreed to it: Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1, No state shall...make anything but Gold and Silver COIN a tender in the payment of debt.

That is about as simple as it gets. The law of the land people, so why does everyone ignore it, and yet be so ready to invoke it over non-issues such as "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Think how big the "gold and silver" market would be if gold and silver was monetized (everybody will have some), and would be therefore somewhat harder to manipulate. If the size of the market is what you are going by.

Anyway, please. This hardly qualifies as a plummet.

[DuncanWaring]

And all the gold in California is in a bank in the middle of Beverley Hills in somebody else's name.

[OK]

Another interesting bit of information is that the IMF requires (not recommends, but requires) member Central Banks (which means every country) to report gold that has been leased out as included in their gold reserves. In other words, the widely believed 30,000+ tons of gold reported as global central bank reserves, are not actually in the vaults.

This has been confirmed by Phillippine, Portuguese, and Finnish central banks. The IMF requires them to list leased gold as reserves. Rumor has it that the German Bundesbank has leased every ounce of their reserves, as have many others.

Anyone who doesn't think Clinton managed to lease out most of America's gold probably believes he never had sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.

[OK]

There is an excellent book on gold as money by a Swiss banker.

"Gold Wars" by Ferdinand Lips.

[DuncanWaring]

How much gold has been mined in the whole history of the world?

I've read that it would make a cube roughly 50 feet on a side.

[Poohbah]

In the time of the Founding Fathers, the American economy was much smaller relative to the precious metals market, so it made sense to use precious metals as money.

Now, not only the American economy dwarfs the entire precious metals market--so do the economies of relatively small players as well. If we returned to the gold standard, we would be saying to various nations around the world, many of them not especially friendly to us, "Please play nice with us and don't mess with the basis of our currency. Pretty please. With sugar on top."

[OK]

The total market cap of all gold mining stocks in the world today is something like $40 billion today. Bill Gates could buy that with his personal money.

[headsonpikes]

Okay...you're suspicious and you're paranoid....

TAXI!!

[Poohbah]

Wow. Somebody finally got the joke.

[discostu]

Of course that clause is clearly only a limit on the states and has nothing to do with what money is. The clause also forbids the states to coin money or issue bills of debt, among other things.

[OK]

Poohbah, you are in dire need of reading "Gold Wars" by Ferdinand Lips. I know from your previous post to Jason_b that this is so.

[discostu]

Oops, bills of CREDIT not bills of debt. Immportant difference.

[Poohbah]

You willing to pay me for the time I spend reading this book?

[Deuce]

Your pov appears to be as follows:

1. Those who have a complaint must make the affirmative case.

2. You reject any complaint if the plaintiff has a vested interest.

How, then, can any complaint merit your consideration.

[Lightnin]

Try $50+ per oz.

[OK]

Re: "You willing to pay me for the time I spend reading this book?"

Yes, if you are willing to pay all Freepers for reading your posts based on lack of understanding of gold as money.