Posted on 07/19/2002 1:59:31 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson
Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:39 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
You would think that the more militant forms of Islam would be enough to worry about these days, for those inclined to anguish over religious extremism. But no. Apparently the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod deserves our special concern. In late June, the church suspended the Rev. David Benke, the president of its Atlantic District and the pastor of a Brooklyn church, for praying with clerics who don't share the Christian faith.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
That's a big difference and one for you to keep in mind.
Regarding what Jesus meant by "many mansions", I'd suggest that He meant "many mansions". Some of them may well be occupied by aliens from other worlds, both in the past and in the future. There are a host of meanings that can be imputed to that statement. Your understanding is only one among many.
NOTE: Regarding Mohammad, he merely adopted the language of the Syrian Orthodox Christian Church concerning God's identity. Wherever you got that "moon god" stuff, I'll never know. Remember, Mohammad thought himself to be a religious reformer, not a founder.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Paul warns of others preaching a different gospel, other than the one Jesus and Paul himslef taught. He wrote that even if an 'angel' or Paul himself told of 'another gospel' that they should be accursed.
Read Galatians, it's in the real Bible.
Insofar as your interpretation varies from ours, it must be in error, eh?!
As for God knowing who's prayers to listen to, I can only go by what I know is in the Bible. I am not to bow down to any other god, or to acknowledge another god as an equal to the Triune God or as deserving of praise. Anything to the contrary is an abomination before the Triune God.
I love my country and it's people, different as they may be. But my first duty is to love my God with all my soul, with all my strength and with all my mind. My second duty is to love my neighbor as myself. These are not to be reversed. In the yankee stadium event, they were. All clergy put the country first. That IS against my religion and the command of Jesus himself.
I do pray with fellow Christians and I should add that my own very dear sister is a Calvinist. But she is wrong on some doctrinal issues ;). No offense was meant to you. I am very saddened by this whole thing. Please pray for our church.
Jesus was the son of God. Yes?
. . . Mr. Benke, by his own admission, lobbied the event's sponsors for an invitation. When unsuccessful, he sneaked onto the field by joining Cardinal Edward Egan.
Even though the main argument of the article was not about whether or how the Rev. Benke got the invitation or how he got on the field, those supporting Benke have latched on to this snippet and tried to make it the big issue, saying that Miss Ziegler was mischaracterizing Benke.
Well, once again, let's look at what Benke himself has written on this score, this time tracking the whole sequence related to his invitation and getting on the field.
Thursday, September 13
Bishop Bouman and I. . . .
In sharing information, I resolved to attend a religious leadership gathering at Abyssinian Baptist church that evening. . . .
The gathering at Abyssinian Baptist Church, a historic parish in Harlem served by Dr. Calvin Butts, ended with a time of prayer and reflection. I attended and sat in the congregation. At the end of the service, I shared words from my seat; I concluded by reading verse one of TLH Hymn 399, “Thee Will I Love, My Strength, My Tower.” After the service, I was informed that the mayor had called for religious leaders to gather at Cardinal Egan’s office to prepare for the visit of President Bush and for a special event to be held in the near future. The religious leader response committee, I was told, had been formed that afternoon.
Friday, September 14
I got to the meeting at Cardinal Egan’s. . . . beside cardinal Egan were Protestant, Muslim and Jewish leaders. The discussion centered around a million person event to be held in a park on Sunday, September 23, for the purpose of civic healing. The Mayor was inviting religious leaders to attend and participate. . . . decisions on religious participants were left up to the various faith groups. The rest of the group then left to go to “Ground Zero”. . . . I was not allowed to go because on the prior day I had not gone through an FBI clearance.
Monday, September 17
There was no contact from the group organizing the September 23 program.
Tuesday, September 18
No contact from the Mayor’s September 23 event group.
Wednesday, September 19
There was no contact from the Mayor’s office concerning September 23. . . .
Thursday, September 20
On this morning . . . I determined to make a phone call to a Roman Catholic contact about the September 23 event. When I asked about the event in Central Park, he said, “Oh, that’s ancient history. With all the security issues, it’s been moved to Yankee Stadium. You’ll need a ticket to get in through security. That’s designed to keep attendance to those who really need to be there.” I made a series of phone calls. By mid-afternoon these conversations resulted in the opportunity to participate in the program at Yankee Stadium and to offer a prayer. I stated that I would consider it after consultation. I contacted Dr. John Hiemstra, Protestant program coordinator and gave him a provisional positive response, pending process of discernment.
Friday, September 21
I contacted Dr. Kieschnick. . . . He then affirmed my decision to participate.
I then contacted Dr. Hiemstra with that information, since he had to know on that day whether I would be participating due to FBI clearance procedures.
Saturday, September 22
Plans were received for bus transportation from St. Patrick’s Cathedral to Yankee Stadium; I could take the bus, but Judy, who had a ticket, had to drive and then park somewhere. . . . We also received a small supply of tickets that I would distribute to parishioners on Sunday morning. There was to be a “rehearsal” with all the celebrities and choirs the night before, with security checks. I couldn’t go, and sent the Circuit Counselor, Rev. Dien Taylor, in my place.
Sunday, September 23
. . . it took almost two hours to get through the web of security with our bus into Yankee Stadium, even though we were pre-screened. The religious participants were held in the Yankee locker room. . . . Then the FBI representative read off the list of approved participants, and my name was not on it – whoops! I went to the Protestant portion leader, who thought that maybe I should just wait in the dugout when the rest went out and they would call me later. . . . But I resolved that I would need to accompany the rest up to the bleacher area out on the field. . . . Then I took the Cardinal’s arm and walked out from the dugout onto the playing field. What were they going to do, throw me off the field? . . . Eventually they found me a chair. . . .
So from President Benke's own retelling of the story, the following appears to have taken place:
1. Benke attended a meeting of religious leaders at Cardinal Egan's on September 14. Attending this meeting was NOT equivalent to being invited to participate as a leader of the September 23 event: "decisions on religious participants were left up to the various faith groups," of which "Protestant" was one.
2. As of the morning of September 20, Benke had not yet been invited to be a participating leader at "A Prayer for America." The "ticket needed to get in through security" applied to all the people who would be sitting in the stands, so that does not necessarily indicate an invitation to be one of the leaders. It was only after Benke initiated "a series of phone calls" that there resulted "the opportunity to participate in the program at Yankee Stadium."
3. It was not until September 21 that Benke's final decision to participate was made known to the Protestant program coordinator.
4. On the afternoon of September 23, Benke's name was not on the FBI's list of approved participants. Benke decided to go out on the field anyway.
5. The Protestant program coordinator advised Benke to stay in the dugout. Benke decided to go out on the field anyway.
6. Knowing that these authorities had not cleared him to go on the field, Benke went anyway, taking cover by taking Cardinal Egan's arm.
7. There was no place set aside for Benke on the platform.
Those are the facts in this matter, according to Benke's own words. Do with them as you will. As it stands, I think Miss Ziegler characterization of what happened is certainly "in the ballpark," so to speak. Benke did "lobby for an invitation." Benke did "sneak onto the field." The only question might be over the phrase, "When unsuccessful." Benke was successful in getting an invitation. Benke was not successful in getting cleared to go on the field. The confusion arises, though, from Benke's own unclear account, when he describes his not being on the list of approved participants and his seeming disregard for the authorities in how he got on the field.
So, yes, Benke did manage to get an invitation and, yes, his name was listed in the outline of the service published on the morning of September 23. And yes, the fact that he was not cleared to go on the field may have been due to a mix-up.
Now let me add this:
I don't care if the mayor himself had delivered a gold-plated invitation to Benke's door and then escorted him personally onto the field to the foremost seat of honor. That would not change the basic problem with what Benke did, and it would not change the main thrust of Miss Ziegler's article.
I appreciate your perspective, seems like all Christians have to somehow overcome this tendency. I am particularly plagued by Christian Fundamentalism, but suggesting that Mr. Bemke should go out and find what he thinks is right is how we got into this predicament to begin with.
Also, if you read post #72, you can see how, based on the Rev. Benke's own words, Miss Ziegler could draw the conclusion she did.
You can stop holding your breath now.
Sure He would, but He would be there to teach the Truth.
Wrong. I do not pray with Muslims and members of other non-Christian religions (religions that deny the divinity and position of Jesus Christ as savior, based on His sacrifice for his creation) and that is my decision. I worship God, not men. If some men choose not to pray with me, that is their decision to make. I won't argue it and I doubt LMSC members would exclude another Christian in a public prayer service based solely on doctrine differences.
That's a big difference and one for you to keep in mind.
I believe your understanding of Christianity is somewhat lacking and you might wish to keep that in mind.
Regarding what Jesus meant by "many mansions", I'd suggest that He meant "many mansions".
How astute.
Some of them may well be occupied by aliens from other worlds, both in the past and in the future. There are a host of meanings that can be imputed to that statement. Your understanding is only one among many.
Please, let's be serious, shall we?
Read the entire passage regading the 'mansions', in context:
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John14: 1
The meaning in is clear. Lots of room in heaven. That's all it says. Your 'understanding' is flawed when you attribute who is residing in those 'mansions'. Scripture doesn't say but since the Bible and this passage was addressed to human beings, I will trust it to refer to human beings....God's creations if you will. You are free to find all the arcane meanings you wish but to the rest of humanity, the words are clear.
NOTE: Regarding Mohammad, he merely adopted the language of the Syrian Orthodox Christian Church concerning God's identity. Wherever you got that "moon god" stuff, I'll never know. Remember, Mohammad thought himself to be a religious reformer, not a founder.
I won't bother debating Mohammad as I'm not interested in discussing a false prophet that through his religion, established by the sword, has misled so many lost souls away from the salvation of Christ. He has many willing apologists, I know. I've seen them, read them.
Some choose Mohammad and his religion of works - and death. I choose Christ and a religion of joy, salvation and life eternal, based on His shed blood, not my feeble 'good works'.
Christianity today is full of men's doctrinal differences, which is very unfortunate, but all Christianity is based on Jesus Christ, Son of God and Savior of mankind. At least know that, if nothing else regarding Christianity.
I think the moral lesson is clear in this case - that it is more important to adhere to the elements of dogma and doctrine than to minister to the grief of one's fellow human beings, particularly if he's dressed in sackcloth and ashes and squatting there in the dirt praying to his "god"!
But, even worse than that, would be to go into the presence of a foreign person praying in an unknown tongue to what might be his "god", but not "The God", expressing his concern for our spiritual comfort.
I am pretty certain that the Prophet Jonah would recognize the problem and would have the solution at hand, but we don't read much about Jonah these days - and in any case, he didn't leave behind any of his sermons for our edification, just his life experience.
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