Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Conservative - Libertarian Schism; A Harmonization
FreeRepublic ^ | July 13, 2002 | Francis W. Porretto

Posted on 07/13/2002 2:49:41 PM PDT by fporretto

In 1987, a California organization called the Advocates for Self-Government, led by a brilliant polemicist named Marshall Fritz, set forth to persuade the nation that the libertarian political philosophy could answer most, if not all, of the most vexing questions in public debate. To aid in opening minds to his message, Mr. Fritz composed a short quiz, whose results were intended to determine where a man's opinions placed him in the overall distribution of political opinion. Mr. Fritz built a campaign around this quiz, and called it "Operation Politically Homeless," to emphasize the considerable gap that had grown up between the major political parties and the typical American. It was upon meeting Mr. Fritz and being exposed to his presentation of the libertarian idea that I first decided to call myself a libertarian.

Yet I'm still a politically homeless man, and am still made uncomfortable by it. Yes, I call myself a libertarian; note the lower-case L. However, I differ with "party" Libertarians -- note the upper-case L -- on several important topics. And the people I get along best with, by party affiliation, are not Libertarians but Republicans.

Many conservatives find themselves at odds with the official positions of the Republican Party on one or more important points. Yet most of those persons would not be comfortable with "pure" libertarianism, and for good reasons. It's too wholesale. It attempts to answer every question, to be all things to all men. And it fails to recognize where it ceases to provide palatable answers.

Please don't mistake me. I think the libertarian political philosophy, where applicable, is a very good one. It's more accurate in its assessment of human nature and its controlling influences, and leads to better societies and better economic results, than any other political concept ever advanced. But the "where applicable" part is very important; in fact, it's the most important part of this paragraph, as it explains in near-totality the "conservative-libertarian schism."

Where would the libertarian postulates of individual rights and individual responsibilities fail to apply? Three generic places:

  1. Where the atoms that interact are not individuals, but collectivities;
  2. Where the "individual" under discussion is incapable, either from innate incapacity or from injury, of understanding rights and responsibilities;
  3. Where rights clash in an absolute and irreconcilable way.

The specific topics that fall within these categories are:

  1. National defense and foreign dealings;
  2. The protection and restraint of the immature and the mentally diseased;
  3. Abortion.

On the subject of international dealings, including military excursions, American libertarians have strained under the tension of conflicting desires. On the one hand, the State's warmaking power is the most dangerous thing it possesses, at least superficially. On the other, no one has yet advanced a plausible market-based scheme for protecting the country that would operate reliably enough to satisfy us. Moreover, the American military, with a few exceptions, really has been used in a wholesome, life-and-freedom-promoting way, against genuinely deserving targets, and has met high ethical standards wherever it's been sent.

Immigration is another area of real agony for American libertarians. There's much truth to the old saw that you can't be anti-immigrant without being anti-American, for America is largely a nation of immigrants. Yet the demise of the assumption of assimilation has rendered large-scale immigration to these shores a positive danger to the commonalities on which our national survival depends. It's unclear, given world trends, that we could re-invigorate the mechanisms that enforce assimilation any time soon. Until we do, the path of prudence will be to close the borders to all but a carefully screened trickle from countries with compatible cultures. Our collectivity must preserve its key commonalities -- a common language, respect for the law and a shared concept of public order, and a sense of unity in the face of demands posed by other nations or cultures -- if it is to preserve itself.

Milton Friedman, one of the century's greatest minds, wrote in his seminal book Capitalism And Freedom: "Freedom is a tenable objective for responsible individuals only. We do not believe in freedom for children or madmen." How true! "Pure" libertarianism has wounded itself badly by attempting to deny this obvious requirement of life: the irresponsible must be protected and restrained until they become responsible, so that they will be safe from others, and others will be safe from them. Madmen who were granted the rights of the sane nearly made New York City unendurable. If the "children's rights" lobby ever got its way, children would die in numbers to defy the imagination, and the American family would vanish.

Of course there are difficulties in determining who is responsible and who isn't. No one said it would be easy. Yet our court system, excepting the obscene, supra-Constitutional "Family Courts," works quite well to determine competence, and would work still better if it were relieved of the burden of all the victimless crimes that swell court dockets nationwide.

Finally, abortion. Let it be conceded that a woman has the right to control her body and its processes. But let it also be conceded that a fetus in the womb is a human being with human rights, not to be deprived of that status by any sophistry. The clash is absolute; rights theory cannot resolve it. Therefore an arbitrary political decision must be made. The position most compatible with other American ideals is to protect the weaker party -- the developing baby -- from destruction by the stronger, unless doing so would demonstrably endanger the life of the mother.

Pure libertarian thinking must concede these bounds -- the bounds of individual action, individual responsibility, and clearly defined, non-contradictory rights -- before "orthodox" conservatives will take it seriously.

By contrast with the above, matters such as the War On Drugs are minor bagatelles. Most conservatives are open-minded enough to consider the possibility that the Drug War might be misconceived. Indeed, there are far more conservatives in the pro-legalization ranks than liberals. The harmony between rights theory and the argument for legalization only buttresses the practical evidence that the Drug War's massive invasions of privacy, erection of unaccountable vice squad bureaus, and sanctification of police-state tactics has done far more harm than good. The conversation will continue, the evidence will accumulate still further, and eventually the Drug War will end.

On the purely practical matter of political efficacy, the Libertarian Party should not be expected to produce electoral victories. It can't, in the nature of things. It's not pragmatic enough to play to the populace's current desires or demands. As a particular "libertarian" position becomes popular enough to command wide support, it will usually be adopted by the Republicans. This is as it should be; third parties do their best work along the margins of the debate, by addressing the more "daring" ideas that the institutionally committed major parties can't afford to play with while they're still controversial.

There's no shame in adhering to either the LP or the GOP, whether your convictions are libertarian or more conventionally conservative. The only shame is in insisting that you must be right, that all precincts have reported now and forever, that your mind is unchangeably made up regardless of whatever new logic or evidence might be presented to you, from whatever source. But this was put far better by the polemicist admired by more conservatives and libertarians than any other, the late, great Ayn Rand:

"There are no evil thoughts, Mr. Rearden," Francisco said, "except one: the refusal to think." (from Atlas Shrugged)


TOPICS: Editorial; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; conservatism; libertarianism; rights
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-158 next last
To: tpaine
PS TP, since my question presupposed your anarchist fantasy was potentially real, what constitution would you be defending, and since you surely admit most people are NOT "libertarian" minded, when the bastards outnumber you, then what?
101 posted on 07/14/2002 4:15:01 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: serinde
If you like fiction, read The Syndic. It posits a different kind of alternative America.
102 posted on 07/14/2002 4:16:23 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: narses
When those who disagree with you create a government and impose their will on you, what will you do?


--- Defend our existing constitution of course. -- How bout you?
97 by tpaine


So either you accept what goes on today as constitutional or you are doing what again?


- 'So either'?
-- What makes you think you set the choices here?
-- You made some silly claims, and were corrected. -- Now you can make a valid point or go away.
103 posted on 07/14/2002 4:20:51 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: fporretto
Well written, I understand quite well the idea of being politically homeless. I have turned to the phrase "Constitutional republican" as a way to resolve the dilemma. Our U.S. Constitution is quite remarkable in balancing libertarian and conservative ideas. People should try it sometime.
104 posted on 07/14/2002 4:21:50 PM PDT by FastCoyote
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: narses
PS TP, since my question presupposed your anarchist fantasy was potentially real, what constitution would you be defending, and since you surely admit most people are NOT "libertarian" minded, when the bastards outnumber you, then what?


I have no such fantasy. You have a bizarre imagination.
I defend our constitution, -- and think there are more basic 'libertarian minded' people, than authoritarian bastards.
--- Then what? -- We dance.

105 posted on 07/14/2002 4:30:49 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: FastCoyote
I have turned to the phrase "Constitutional republican" as a way to resolve the dilemma. Our U.S. Constitution is quite remarkable in balancing libertarian and conservative ideas. People should try it sometime.


Well said.
-- But far to many, even here at FR, --- see the constitution only as a way to enforce their own single issue agendas.
106 posted on 07/14/2002 4:38:55 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Certainly, a unique life begins at conception. -- But why would human rights immediately begin that supersede those of its mother?

I understand your position much better now, and can see how one could reasonably come to it. Personally, I still believe we should err on the safe side - particularly since IMO the child's life should be assigned greater weight than inconvenience (to the expectant mother).

Certainly, this is the most difficult of moral dilemmas. Regards.

107 posted on 07/14/2002 4:41:20 PM PDT by NittanyLion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: NittanyLion
-- Thanks --
108 posted on 07/14/2002 4:43:03 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: waterstraat
Where is your evidence that George Washington was a libertarian?
109 posted on 07/14/2002 5:50:32 PM PDT by rdb3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Why do you think a policy of non-agression for government is a 'bad idea'?

I chose the wrong words, meant to say non-initiation of the use of force. The primary legitimate government function is as a cooperative means of self-defense. There are times when you can not wait for the other side to attack you first; you need to launch a pre-emptive first strike in order to eliminate a threat. Our Government’s first priority is to protect the lives of American citizens and that takes precedence of the rights of the citizens of any other nation.

110 posted on 07/14/2002 7:25:26 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: fporretto
Ya know, Fran, a libertarian who is trying to harmonize libertarian perspectives and conservative ones could do worse than to read
The Theme Is Freedom
Religion, Politics, and the American Tradition
by M. Stanton Evans
Lots of good stuff in that, including surprising precedents for the Declaration of Independence . . . 'course I know you are quite well read, and would scarcely assume that you've never seen it. But if not . . .
111 posted on 07/14/2002 7:28:31 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
I'm trying to remember the last this country "needed to launch a pre-emptive first strike in order to eliminate a threat".
-- In fact has this ever been a U.S. military or political policy?
112 posted on 07/14/2002 8:27:07 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Yes, the constitution is a fixed limitation on government powers, and it guarantees individual, inalienable rights to ALL, including pregnant women.

      AND including the unborn.
113 posted on 07/14/2002 8:44:00 PM PDT by Celtman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Celtman
Yes, the constitution is a fixed limitation on government powers, and it guarantees individual, inalienable rights to ALL, including pregnant women.
      AND including the unborn. [who are viable]


Yep. -- ALL 'persons'. -- Legally, you're not a person till viablity.

-- We are a nation of constitutional law. --Learn to live with, and accept, your constitution. - It protects your rights.
114 posted on 07/14/2002 9:14:12 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
I'm trying to remember the last this country "needed to launch a pre-emptive first strike in order to eliminate a threat".
-- In fact has this ever been a U.S. military or political policy?

Preemption is the current US policy. A wise example was the Israel military striking Iraq’s nuclear facilities in the early 80’s. In any war the party who strikes first generally has an advantage. Japan’s striking of Pearl Harbor gave them a naval advantage that was not reversed until Midway. Maximizing security requires projecting both strong defensive capabilities and avoiding antagonizing others to the point where they retaliate but when those steps fail to deter aggression you can’t wait to be attacked.

115 posted on 07/14/2002 9:41:10 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
We've used a pre-emptive strike before declaring war? When?

[stuff like Clintions aspirin factory aside, that is.]
116 posted on 07/14/2002 10:23:49 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
So what is your point or don't you have one?
117 posted on 07/14/2002 10:28:00 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
My hope when I chose my freeper name was to remake the GOP in a more libertarian direction without adopting the non-agression and other bad ideas from the Libertarian party.
34 by Libertarianize the GOP


Question to ALL:

--- Why do you think a policy of non-agression for government is a 'bad idea'?



This question was my original 'point'. -- What was yours? -- You claimed that the non-aggression/initiation of force principle of libertarians is 'bad'.
-- Can you back it up with more than your opinion?
118 posted on 07/14/2002 10:49:23 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 117 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
You have made no attempt to respond to anything I have said or to even offer an alternative.
119 posted on 07/14/2002 10:54:49 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: Libertarianize the GOP
Alternative to what?
120 posted on 07/14/2002 11:03:14 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-158 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson