Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Conservative - Libertarian Schism; A Harmonization
FreeRepublic ^ | July 13, 2002 | Francis W. Porretto

Posted on 07/13/2002 2:49:41 PM PDT by fporretto

In 1987, a California organization called the Advocates for Self-Government, led by a brilliant polemicist named Marshall Fritz, set forth to persuade the nation that the libertarian political philosophy could answer most, if not all, of the most vexing questions in public debate. To aid in opening minds to his message, Mr. Fritz composed a short quiz, whose results were intended to determine where a man's opinions placed him in the overall distribution of political opinion. Mr. Fritz built a campaign around this quiz, and called it "Operation Politically Homeless," to emphasize the considerable gap that had grown up between the major political parties and the typical American. It was upon meeting Mr. Fritz and being exposed to his presentation of the libertarian idea that I first decided to call myself a libertarian.

Yet I'm still a politically homeless man, and am still made uncomfortable by it. Yes, I call myself a libertarian; note the lower-case L. However, I differ with "party" Libertarians -- note the upper-case L -- on several important topics. And the people I get along best with, by party affiliation, are not Libertarians but Republicans.

Many conservatives find themselves at odds with the official positions of the Republican Party on one or more important points. Yet most of those persons would not be comfortable with "pure" libertarianism, and for good reasons. It's too wholesale. It attempts to answer every question, to be all things to all men. And it fails to recognize where it ceases to provide palatable answers.

Please don't mistake me. I think the libertarian political philosophy, where applicable, is a very good one. It's more accurate in its assessment of human nature and its controlling influences, and leads to better societies and better economic results, than any other political concept ever advanced. But the "where applicable" part is very important; in fact, it's the most important part of this paragraph, as it explains in near-totality the "conservative-libertarian schism."

Where would the libertarian postulates of individual rights and individual responsibilities fail to apply? Three generic places:

  1. Where the atoms that interact are not individuals, but collectivities;
  2. Where the "individual" under discussion is incapable, either from innate incapacity or from injury, of understanding rights and responsibilities;
  3. Where rights clash in an absolute and irreconcilable way.

The specific topics that fall within these categories are:

  1. National defense and foreign dealings;
  2. The protection and restraint of the immature and the mentally diseased;
  3. Abortion.

On the subject of international dealings, including military excursions, American libertarians have strained under the tension of conflicting desires. On the one hand, the State's warmaking power is the most dangerous thing it possesses, at least superficially. On the other, no one has yet advanced a plausible market-based scheme for protecting the country that would operate reliably enough to satisfy us. Moreover, the American military, with a few exceptions, really has been used in a wholesome, life-and-freedom-promoting way, against genuinely deserving targets, and has met high ethical standards wherever it's been sent.

Immigration is another area of real agony for American libertarians. There's much truth to the old saw that you can't be anti-immigrant without being anti-American, for America is largely a nation of immigrants. Yet the demise of the assumption of assimilation has rendered large-scale immigration to these shores a positive danger to the commonalities on which our national survival depends. It's unclear, given world trends, that we could re-invigorate the mechanisms that enforce assimilation any time soon. Until we do, the path of prudence will be to close the borders to all but a carefully screened trickle from countries with compatible cultures. Our collectivity must preserve its key commonalities -- a common language, respect for the law and a shared concept of public order, and a sense of unity in the face of demands posed by other nations or cultures -- if it is to preserve itself.

Milton Friedman, one of the century's greatest minds, wrote in his seminal book Capitalism And Freedom: "Freedom is a tenable objective for responsible individuals only. We do not believe in freedom for children or madmen." How true! "Pure" libertarianism has wounded itself badly by attempting to deny this obvious requirement of life: the irresponsible must be protected and restrained until they become responsible, so that they will be safe from others, and others will be safe from them. Madmen who were granted the rights of the sane nearly made New York City unendurable. If the "children's rights" lobby ever got its way, children would die in numbers to defy the imagination, and the American family would vanish.

Of course there are difficulties in determining who is responsible and who isn't. No one said it would be easy. Yet our court system, excepting the obscene, supra-Constitutional "Family Courts," works quite well to determine competence, and would work still better if it were relieved of the burden of all the victimless crimes that swell court dockets nationwide.

Finally, abortion. Let it be conceded that a woman has the right to control her body and its processes. But let it also be conceded that a fetus in the womb is a human being with human rights, not to be deprived of that status by any sophistry. The clash is absolute; rights theory cannot resolve it. Therefore an arbitrary political decision must be made. The position most compatible with other American ideals is to protect the weaker party -- the developing baby -- from destruction by the stronger, unless doing so would demonstrably endanger the life of the mother.

Pure libertarian thinking must concede these bounds -- the bounds of individual action, individual responsibility, and clearly defined, non-contradictory rights -- before "orthodox" conservatives will take it seriously.

By contrast with the above, matters such as the War On Drugs are minor bagatelles. Most conservatives are open-minded enough to consider the possibility that the Drug War might be misconceived. Indeed, there are far more conservatives in the pro-legalization ranks than liberals. The harmony between rights theory and the argument for legalization only buttresses the practical evidence that the Drug War's massive invasions of privacy, erection of unaccountable vice squad bureaus, and sanctification of police-state tactics has done far more harm than good. The conversation will continue, the evidence will accumulate still further, and eventually the Drug War will end.

On the purely practical matter of political efficacy, the Libertarian Party should not be expected to produce electoral victories. It can't, in the nature of things. It's not pragmatic enough to play to the populace's current desires or demands. As a particular "libertarian" position becomes popular enough to command wide support, it will usually be adopted by the Republicans. This is as it should be; third parties do their best work along the margins of the debate, by addressing the more "daring" ideas that the institutionally committed major parties can't afford to play with while they're still controversial.

There's no shame in adhering to either the LP or the GOP, whether your convictions are libertarian or more conventionally conservative. The only shame is in insisting that you must be right, that all precincts have reported now and forever, that your mind is unchangeably made up regardless of whatever new logic or evidence might be presented to you, from whatever source. But this was put far better by the polemicist admired by more conservatives and libertarians than any other, the late, great Ayn Rand:

"There are no evil thoughts, Mr. Rearden," Francisco said, "except one: the refusal to think." (from Atlas Shrugged)


TOPICS: Editorial; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; conservatism; libertarianism; rights
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 141-158 next last
To: gcruse
why, in lieu of a year of OJT, any job below research scientist requires college education at all.

I've come to the conclusion that this trend toward even ditch diggers needing at least a BA is to expose as many people as possible to the marxist indoctrinators on the faculties of colleges.

A friend of mine mailed me a clipping from the Help Wanted ads in his local newspaper a few years ago. The ad he highlighted listed the qualifications needed which included a BA in something or other. The closing line of the ad read, "Some heavy lifting involved". I $#!+ you not.

81 posted on 07/14/2002 10:05:03 AM PDT by Twodees
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Question to ALL: --- Why do you think a policy of non-agression for government is a 'bad idea'?

Every freedom loving person, every libertarian, from George Washington on down, all believe in non-aggression by governments.

82 posted on 07/14/2002 10:17:41 AM PDT by waterstraat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: Twodees
A friend of mine mailed me a clipping from the Help Wanted ads in his local newspaper a few years ago. The ad he highlighted listed the qualifications needed which included a BA in something or other. The closing line of the ad read, "Some heavy lifting involved". I $#!+ you not.

That is horrifyingly funny, or hilariously horrific, I don't know which!!!   :)

83 posted on 07/14/2002 10:27:49 AM PDT by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: Arthur McGowan; jlogajan; dheretic
It is possible to commit murder without being prosecuted for it.
It isn't being prosecuted that makes one a criminal; it's
committing the crime that makes one a criminal.

Hold that thought.  Think of the War on Drugs and
lifestyle, victimless crimes.  By making so much private
behavior illegal, we are in fact making scofflaw criminals
of great swaths of  the population.  This is corrosive
to good citizenship, at the least, which leads to degradation
of society.  Degradation of society is the prime rationale
of those who support and demand more victimless crime
penalties and lifestyle regulation.  Think about it.

84 posted on 07/14/2002 10:41:31 AM PDT by gcruse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: BlackElk
"If you do not want your (not our) children taught homosexualist and pro-abortion propaganda in school, you do not need the Libertarian Party to pull them out of government or any other schools that indoctrinate kids with such agitprop. Pull your kids from the schools."

Thank you for your post. When I said "our" children, I actually meant "our" as in "my husband's and mine". It is not my place to enforce my views on other families through the gov't.

Also, my children are not in public schools. In fact, they're not in school at all. We homeschool them.

Thank you for your other comments, too. I do not dislike people based on their beliefs alone. However, I do become defensive when my own beliefs (or nonbeliefs) are attacked and I'm lumped with other groups that have nothing to do with "atheism". "Atheism" simply means "a" (without) "theism" (belief in a god or gods). That's all.

85 posted on 07/14/2002 10:47:03 AM PDT by Tired of Taxes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: fporretto
"All conclusions in the political sphere must be tentative. Scott Adams, he of "Dilbert" fame, has told us in his marvelous book The Dilbert Principle that we're idiots, and take it from me: he's right. Want proof? The thing we do best is learn from our mistakes! A non-idiotic race would have found a better way centuries ago, a way that averted the need to try everything at least twice." -- fporretto

Letting each idiot learn directly from his own mistakes is less costly than having everybody learn from the mistakes of "America's only native criminal class" as Mark Twain referred to the Congress. Besides which even idiots can observe the other idiots and learn something valuable. For example, without the government it is fairly easy to observe that recreational drugs are dangerous and destructive. Unfortunately, with government prohibition the idiot also quickly learns that drugs provide an immense profit opportunity too. The best balance in terms of cost is to limit the power of government to involve itself at all in these matters. A relatively few idiots will suffer if drugs are legal but many more suffer when drugs are prohibited and society itself pays a much greater price in terms of quality of life and the expense of funding the government (the idiots also pay more for their drugs and commit an endless stream of property crimes to fund their habits).

Once an entity is created its operatives will always act to extend the power and reach of the entity that employs them. This means that every consecutive tentative decision made by government tends eventually to increase its power and scope until the cost to the people greatly outweighs any potential benefits the government was originally created to provide. Our federal government today not only costs more than it is worth but acts to our detriment and against our collective wishes and best knowledge with absolute impunity. This conclusion is not tentative. It is a law of nature: the more energy an entity uses the less of that energy can be used to perform useful work. Most of it is pure waste.

86 posted on 07/14/2002 11:08:33 AM PDT by Vercingetorix
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: fporretto
You have written a most profound piece here. Let me say that as a post-conservative, I'd like nothing more than to work with others who wish to see the complete and total destruction of all Leftist thought and policy, and the desire to demarxitize [my word] the body politic.

As I've read this thread, my initial hunch is coming to pass, namely, that heated idealism is getting in the way of anything constructive. Your idea here is viable constructivism (as I see it) and must be supported. But when ideologues get in the way as they already have here, this becomes nothing more than a 2002 version of the Tower of Babel which is doomed to destruction.

I like your thinking here, Mr. Porretto. Would that there were more of it.

87 posted on 07/14/2002 11:10:55 AM PDT by rdb3
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: waterstraat
To: clamper1797; christine11; Libertarianize the GOP

My hope when I chose my freeper name was to remake the GOP in a more libertarian direction without adopting the non-agression and other bad ideas from the Libertarian party.
34 by Libertarianize the GOP


Question to ALL:

--- Why do you think a policy of non-agression for government is a 'bad idea'?
80 by tpaine


Every freedom loving person, every libertarian, from George Washington on down, all believe in non-aggression by governments.


-- Yep , seems pretty self evident to me. -- Thats why I asked, --
-- why do they think its 'bad'?
88 posted on 07/14/2002 11:13:19 AM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: fporretto
As a particular "libertarian" position becomes popular enough to command wide support, it will usually be adopted by the Republicans. This is as it should be; third parties do their best work along the margins of the debate, by addressing the more "daring" ideas that the institutionally committed major parties can't afford to play with while they're still controversial.

Thanks for this fine, insightful essay, fporretto. I like the way you solve the abortion impasse. But of course, it doesn't quell the controversy to say that our presumption ought in principle to be the protection of the rights of the unborn. Some Libertarians believe that a pre-born person doesn't have rights; or if in some sense he does, they are not such that can possibly trump the mother's right to "control her body" (i.e., to terminate an unwanted child). Libs and Cons can get together on many, many issues. But clearly not all. best, bb.

89 posted on 07/14/2002 11:35:36 AM PDT by betty boop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
We believe in not *initiating* violence, but in carrying a big stick to stop it.

Well good on you, but what percentage of the population thinks that way? 1%, 5%, 10%? When those who disagree with you create a government and impose their will on you, what will you do?

90 posted on 07/14/2002 12:07:00 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: waterstraat
That would be the Geo. Washington who rode at the head of the Army of the United States to crush the Whiskey Rebellion? Yes?
91 posted on 07/14/2002 12:09:38 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: betty boop
Well, yes, Betty, and no argument. A lot of libertarians do hold the fetus to be without rights, or with rights inferior to those of the mother. But not all, as I'm here to testify. Doris Gordon of Libertarians For Life could point you to still more.

Some years ago, when I was involved with the LP, there was a speaker at a New York Libertarian Party convention by the name of Andrew Melechinsky -- no reason for you to have heard of him, he was an entirely local figure with no national visibility -- who chided libertarians generally for backing abortion, on the grounds that the most beautiful thing about the freedom philosophy is how pro-life it is in every other way. And you know, he scored some points. A significant number of the attendees were impressed by the argument, and many others looked as if they wished he hadn't opened his mouth.

We badly need President Bush's concept of a culture of life. We need to make a society in which women want the children they carry. Because abortion is so easy, and so easy to conceal, laws against it can only achieve so much. We've demonstrated the limitations of law and its enforcement with the Drug War.

There is much to be done. To do it will require a libertarian-conservative coalition whose members are agreed on general principles and who are willing to work on their differences in a spirit free of rancor. I am committed to building that coalition. Will you help?

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit the Palace Of Reason: http://palaceofreason.com

92 posted on 07/14/2002 1:55:38 PM PDT by fporretto
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: Starwind
What is your small 'l' libertarian view on things like roads, police & fire departments, building inspectors, sewers and schools...the infrastructure of local 'civilized' communities.

Some of your questions may be answered more easily in fictional form. The Probability Broach and The American Zone, by L. Niel Smith, are two books set in a parallel universe with an "America" based on libertarian ideals. The characters explain their philosophies very clearly and make some good points.

93 posted on 07/14/2002 2:28:03 PM PDT by serinde
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: MissAmericanPie
both given to flights of fancy

Ah, but faith in your fellow man is at least a forgivable foolishness.

94 posted on 07/14/2002 2:30:41 PM PDT by Pistias
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: narses
"An anarchistic society is more likely to be peaceful than one ruled by either Jerry Falwell or Vladimir Lenin" Fair enough, if supported by evidence. What examples can you offer? 47 posted on 7/13/02 9:49 PM Pacific by narses

That's a fascinating observation he/she has made there. But...uh...there has never been any "threat" of Jerry Falwell "ruling" our society. Never been any chance of a fundamentalist theocratic tyranny (except in the wild, paranoid, liberal imagination). More "privacy of the bedroom" fantasies of liberal paranoia perhaps? Wacky liberals and sex perverts are probably the only people that waste time worrying about Jerry Falwell and Co. taking over. There was, what, one run for the presidency by Robertson in the GOP primaries and he attracted a small minority of that vote, already representing a fraction of the conservative spectrum, itself a minority. Secular humanist liberals need a Time Machine to teleport themselves back to 17th-century Massachusetts to realize these fantasies.

95 posted on 07/14/2002 2:33:08 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
At least you responded. I must just be noise here while they build their sand castles.
96 posted on 07/14/2002 3:40:24 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: narses
When those who disagree with you create a government and impose their will on you, what will you do?


--- Defend our existing constitution of course. -- How bout you?
97 posted on 07/14/2002 3:45:18 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: narses
Link on Christianity and Freedom: http://www.acton.org

http://www.acton.org/publicat/randl/97nov_dec/leddihn.html

98 posted on 07/14/2002 3:53:50 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: narses
At least you responded. I must just be noise here while they build their sand castles.


-- How droll. You're building sand castles that you believe libertarians inhabit, and ignore posts refuting such nonsense.

99 posted on 07/14/2002 4:00:45 PM PDT by tpaine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
So either you accept what goes on today as constitutional or you are doing what again?
100 posted on 07/14/2002 4:07:06 PM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 141-158 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson