Well, this one might do it - but it's kind of hard to maneuver without it being in the water.
Posted on 07/04/2002 6:17:30 PM PDT by newwahoo
I need help picking a weapon from FR's firearms gurus!
Here's the deal:
1. The choices consist of the Glock 19, Sig Sauer 226, or (boo) S&W 5946. I know you all have your favorites but these are the options and they're not going to change.
2. Money is not an issue, nor is ease of use. If one is more work but worth the effort then its worth getting. I'll just have to invest the time and energy. My life is worth it so thats ok.
3. Concealment and weight are not critical. Reliability and my confidence level are far more important to me.
4. As you could probably tell, I'm already leaning against the S&W for political reasons. I'm going to need a real compelling reason to carry one of their guns.
Thank you for your opinions and experiences.
Just from my experience as an observer, my #1 advice to you (no matter which sidearm you ultimately select) is to be absolutely serious about not only your initial training but regular and devoted practice.
When I worked for the APD, I found that the sort of officer who only practiced when it was qualifying time and treated his sidearm as just another piece of equipment like his radio was a hazard to everybody around him (and himself as well). I would go out to the police range and shoot with the guys, and the only ones who were good reliable shots were the ones who were (as I put it above) gun nuts in private life as well. They practiced every weekend, read up on the literature, and just generally stayed current. It made a big difference at the range.
It was my summer "carry gun" (until they came out with the stainless Colt officer's model) and I HATED that thing. Nasty recoil -- could only describe it as a sharp kick, as opposed to the slower and more uniform "push" that a good .45 gives -- with a disconcerting "twist" in the hand to boot, and not particularly accurate either. And with all this you get the negligible "power" of a 9mm short (.380) which wouldn't stop an enraged squirrel, assuming you don't get the .32 which wouldn't stop a field mouse.
I am convinced that Ian Fleming never could have fired one, or he would have given Mr. Bond something more accurate and effective.
PARTICULARLY WITH 9mm: shoot it "limp wristed" a few times, since a few 9mm designs malfunction unless you're holding it firmly -- which you may not be able to do if you've been hit and are weak from blood loss. When things have gone completely south is NOT the time to find out your gun is "sensitive" to how it's held. (My Glock 30 in .45 works reliably regardless of hold or position)
The debate on the "knockdown" question, however, is far from resolved. I know that folks have done tests on muzzle energy, shots into gelatin &c. &c. and the question of scientifically verifying the knockdown power of the .45 is still open.
So we're left with anecdotal evidence. I hear way too many stories of folks who have been perforated with multiple 9mm rounds who not only remain standing but keep fighting. Recently (this spring) some fool led local police officers on a high speed chase through three counties while shooting backwards at them out the driver's side window. A number of officers returned fire, and when the music stopped, they found they had hit him several times. But the only reason he stopped was that the Douglas County line was coming up fast. (Douglas County is renowed among local felons as the one place in the Atlanta metro area that you do NOT want to be arrested. Assuming you survive arrest and transport to the local lockup, the judges and juries there are notorious for giving not only the max but also consecutive rather than concurrent sentences on everything they can think of to charge you with.)
I have NEVER heard a 9mm-type story regarding anybody shot with a .45 ACP. The tissue damage from a slow, large profile bullet that expends all its considerable muzzle energy in the target is just too traumatic. Of course, we also have to consider that no local police department here carries the .45 ACP, so there aren't any "incidents" resulting from confrontations with local malefactors to compare with 9mm.
I don't carry a firearm, it's virtually impossible in my state but I wouldn't anyway. But if I did, I would spend 10 units of time preparing myself mentally, emotionally, spiritually - viscerally- to use a gun against another person for every one unit I spent becoming proficient with the firearm. That's what I learned from that thread. Assessing situations, setting thresholds of peril, conducting yourself after the event vis a vis law enforcement, etc. It was one of the best discussions I've observed in my time here. It made sense to me. Regards!
Could it be that those who use 9's more more often rely on hi-capcity rather than shot placement vs the .45 carrier who, imo, more often takes the time to learn markmanship?
'Nuff said.
Same thinking that convinces some people that a shotgun is a magic messenger of death, and all they have to do is point it in the general direction of whatever they want to hit, shut their eyes, and pull the trigger. (A morning between the skeet towers will generally disabuse folks of this type of thinking. :-D )
Volume of lead in the air means nothing if it doesn't hit its target. A friend of mine is an officer in a local police department, he told me about a shootout between a burglar/auto thief and two rookie officers . . . they carry the Glock and a couple extra magazines. So far as they were able to determine after the excitement was over, the officers fired EVERY round they had on them, and the burglar emptied his revolver (apparently had no speed loaders). NOBODY hit ANYTHING -- if you don't count the dumpster in a parking lot about 30 feet from the epicenter of the encounter! Even the burglar's car was completely untouched. Apparently he surrendered out of boredom after they all stood and stared at each other for awhile.
Admittedly these were rookies and didn't have much training time. But why they sent the two of them out unaccompanied by more experienced personnel is a mystery to me . . .
But my eyes were opened during that thread by revelations regarding the stress and paralysis that sometimes accompanies a real, deadly force event. Taking a weapon out into the world is profoundly different than home defense dynamics - where territory is unquestioned, encroachment is given and personal peril can be assumed. That's not as black and white out "there" I'd want to conduct a lot of soul searching and subsequent situational training prior to carrying a weapon out in the world, because I wouldn't want to box myself into a violent confrontation if there was a secure exit path, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to hesitate or freeze from indecision when it's go time. It won't matter what firearm you brandish if you freeze at zero hour. I don't know if I have the gonads for that confrontation.
It doesn't help that Hollywood portrays a shotgun hit by launching the vicitm 12 feet through the air, though a wall, and into the next room.
Well, this one might do it - but it's kind of hard to maneuver without it being in the water.
No doubt. When I started carrying 'legally' my whole mindset changed. I wasn't confrontational before, but with a CC permit one encounters a whole host of new responsibilities. There was no macho-ness to it at all, and only a handful of people, fellow shooters, even know that I have any guns at all.
I look so innocent (inept?!) that, before shooting the shooting starts, I have frequently been offered friendly tips by those who don't know me at the range I've shot at for over three years. I guess I just don't look a 'gun-type' and people want to help. Just so happens that I grew up with a modified ammo range in the basement!
I was once on the firing line next to a guy who looked like a stereotypical yuppie bean counter, 50ish, balding, pudgy, glasses, etc. His kit had some serious tools, however. He finished his session by practicing double taps with a Beretta 12 gauge semi auto! By just looking at him who'd've thunk it?
I once went on a river trip with our local paddling club, the trip leader had the biggest doggone dive knife I have EVER seen strapped to the lower edge of her PFD. I asked her, "Is that for sharks?" and she grinned and growled, "No . . . RAFTERS!"
I think she would really be interested in this boat. :-D
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