Islam vs. the West

Mpls (red)Star Tribune ^ | 6/29/02 | Bob von Sternberg

[Valin]

Ten years ago, Tunisian terrorist Fouad Salah expressed an implacably murderous view of the West: "We Muslims should kill every last one of you Westerners."

A year later, the mastermind of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 told his followers: "We must terrorize the enemies of Islam and frighten them and disturb them and shake the earth under their feet."

[Valin]

Jerry Farrell, former Foreign Service officer with nearly 20 years of experience in the Mideast, said lumping all radical Islamics into a pot "is just nonsense because it can't be reduced that way. A unified theory isn't the way to explain all of these different groups that all have differing agendas. Are Hamas and Islamic Jihad a threat to the United States? No. Is Al-Qaida? Yes."

Wanna bet?

[Hugin]

At one extreme are those who say the civilization clash is so profound and intractable that perpetual warfare is inevitable. Others say it's within the United States' power to defuse radical Muslim rage by drastically changing its policies toward repressive Muslim regimes that have spawned the radicals. A third camp says the way toward peace belongs to the moderate majority of Muslims to reclaim the faith from violent Islamicists.

Then there's the fourth view, that says we should kick their Islamic butts so hard it will be a thousand years before any survirors dare even think about attacking us.

[A Navy Vet]

"Christian civilization doesn't make any more sense; how do you define a civilization that produced both Martin Luther King and Adolf Hitler?"

What a brilliant remark from another brilliant academic. Take one of the few bad examples (understatement noted) in 20th century West and compare it to the overwhelming negative consequences Islamic theology has on its followers worldwide. Typical liberal distraction.

[AZLiberty]

Princeton historian Bernard Lewis accepted the clash-of-civilizations theory and took it further, arguing in effect, that Muslims have no one to blame but themselves for becoming "poor, weak and ignorant" in the 21st century. Muslim civilization's long, steady decline during the past millennium has been most often marked by a desire to blame someone else for its fortunes rather than to look at itself and try to correct obvious ills, he maintains.

Only representative governments and capitalism have produced immense and widely distributed wealth. If that's "Western", then the Rest will have to embrace "Western" ideals to achieve comparable results.

[hinckley buzzard]

Whole article based on the opinions of three College Joes and a career gofer from the State Department.

Yeah, I'll believe them over Lewis and Huntington (not to mention Pipes and Emerson) any day.

[Valin]

Part of the problem is, individual freedom(found in the west) V societal order(found in the Islamic world)
As an example here in the west religion is considered a matter of individual choice and no bodies business but yours, if you live in the Islamis world you'd better be a follower of Islam or your life is going to be very...interesting.

[McGavin999]

Anyone ever wonder what would have happened if Saudi Arabia had spent those billions of dollars improving the lives of their own people instead of shipping it all over the world to finance jihad?

They left their own people at risk, in chains, with no real opportunity. Think of all those young Saudis with college educations who can't find work because the people with the money decided to finance foreign mosques and purchase AK-47's.

[Valin]

From what I've read the average income there is dropping like a rock. The family Saud had best keep its powder dry.

[McGavin999]

You know, to be honest, I'm really torn on the Al Saud family. Some of them are real creeps, but I think some of them really needed help during the 90's and there was NO help coming from the Clinton administration. It could be that they just grabbed onto the tail of a tiger and then found they couldn't let go.

I don't know. I'm trying really hard not to let my anger get in the way of clear sight, but I think I'm losing the battle.

[Entropy Squared]

Then there's the fourth view, that says we should kick their Islamic butts so hard it will be a thousand years before any survirors dare even think about attacking us.

The fourth view works for me.

[truth_seeker]

From what I've read the average income there is dropping like a rock. The family Saud had best keep its powder dry.

How about a (government financial) current budget deficit; how about 25 percent unemployment?

The Saudi citizens are unemployed, but they import workers from all over. High level professionals, from north America and Europe; skilled and unskilled labor from Asia (Pakistan, Philipines, etc.).

Considering that SA had vast financial resources, with which to prepare for a post-oil era, it is truly a sign of mismanagement that they are like they are, today.

Try engaging almost any muslim/arab in intelligent conversation. After a few such experiences, you will know why THEY are in the mess.

[Kermit]

"We must terrorize the enemies of Islam and frighten them and disturb them and shake the earth under their feet."

Okay, Mr Islamic Terrorist, then what? After you terrorize people and blow up a few things, then what? What does that get you. The more successfully you blow something up, the more likely you turn Saudi Arabia into a glazed over parking lot. What's the point?

[Valin]

From the christian science moniter, on Wahhabism(snip)
President George Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair stress that the "war on terrorism" is not a battle between the West and Islam. But surely they mean mainstream Islam. If one listens to students, like Hasan, in Pakistan, or Osama bin Laden's latest video footage, one hears the language of a holy war, and the dark strains of a theology that is gaining popular acceptance. Some dub it Wahhabism. Others call it primitive Islam or Salafiyya.

Basically, Islamic experts say, it's a hybrid and simplistic blend of Islamic fundamentalism. This "Islam" seeks to eradicate all forms of Islam other than its own strict literal interpretation of the Koran. It comes packaged with a set of now well-known political grievances, often directed at US foreign policy, and justifies violence as a means of purging nations of corruption, moral degradation, and spiritual torpor.

In one sense, this strain of Islamic ideology has been around for at least the past two decades. It's been taught in the proliferating fundamentalist madrassahs in Pakistan. It has been fueled by petrodollars from Saudi Arabia, and preached in mosques from Egypt to Indonesia. And it continues to inspire militant groups such as Al Queda, the Taliban, Islamic Jihad, Abu Sayyaf, and many others.

[Valin]

It gets worse for the family Saud, the population is getting younger. I want to say 40% of their population is under 25(don't quote me on the exact figure). Tom Friedman has written a lot about this.

[McGavin999]

Oh, I know where the money is coming from Valin, but the Al Saud family is some 300 strong. They all get their cut from the petro dollars and some of them may be looking at taking a bigger cut by cutting out some of their "brethern".

If Israel is going to survive, we'd better figure out which is which and do it pretty quick. Israel can build a fence around themselves, but with all that money seeking to purchase WMD, sooner or later someone is going to lob a bomb over that fence. Better to sort the rotten apples out of the barrel.

[McGavin999]

The more successfully you blow something up, the more likely you turn Saudi Arabia into a glazed over parking lot. What's the point?

They obviously haven't thought it out that far ;o)

[PsyOp]

Martin Luther King and Adolf Hitler.

What a Moron. Hitler was not a Christian. He despised Christianity nearly as much as Judaism.

[The Southern Right Winger]

"A major reason the radicals wield so much clout in some Middle Eastern states can be traced to a huge difference between Islamic culture and Western societies. In Islam, there is nothing resembling the separation of church and state that evolved, first in the United States and subsequently in other countries."

In other words the reason we cannot say the pledge in public schools is to prevent terrorism. Get a clue.