Has the Time Come to Consider Making Celibacy Optional In the Western Church?

TCRNews ^ | Steven Hand

[Domestic Church]

The problem with getting rid of the gays in the priesthood is that no one in the hierarchy seems to be able to push the current ones out. I know in the Philly Archdiocese our Cardinal has supposedly cleaned up the seminary (I pray this is so but what if it isn't? What if it is spin cover? The past months local and national news have jaded my view.) but that doesn't eliminate those already in the ranks and they are a problem now...they will deter todays and tomorrows the good men from considering vocations...not all but enough to hurt a rebound of good men to vocations.

[johniegrad]

Thank you very much for your post. By following links, I was able to run across, cathmed.org. As a Catholic physician, I was unaware of this organization. They have a very impressive conference coming up in Chicago in October in which Justice Scalia will be the keynote speaker. I may attend this conference and join the organization. Thanks again.

[B.R. Burton]

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
- 1 Timothy 4

[B.R. Burton]

"Neither you nor Steven Hand actually understand what it means to dedicate your life to Christ for others."

And you base this on what? I'm not condemning a VOLUNTARY CHOICE to commit to celibacy (which is DIFFERENT from chastity). The rule of celibacy is a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS. There is NO LAW in the Bible which commands celibacy. Again, celibacy is DIFFERENT from chastity.

"But don't feel bad,not many people can step outside of themselves and view the worlds with objectivity."

I know, you should try reading my comments, and 1 Timothy 4.

[pittsburgh gop guy]

No.

[B.R. Burton]

"all unmarried Christians are called to live lives of celibacy until and if they marry."

Celibacy is different from chastity.

[retiredtexan]

Celibacy was always designed to be a "sacrifice" ... not easy. It was never supposed to be easy but rather an offering to God.

Well and truely said.They know the rules when they apply and when they become a priest.They chose, not with a gun to their head.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

You conveniently leave out that Paul in instructing Timothy, the Bishop Of Ephesus in 1 Timothy 4:3, is warning him of the Gnostics, Marcionites, Encratites, Manicheans and other ancient heretics who absolutely condemned all marriage and the use of any kind of meat because of their pagan belief that all flesh emanated from an evil source. That's a common flaw of linguistic literalists. You fail to mention the fact that Jesus in Matthew 19:12 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 both praise celibacy. Now, using your logic, if celibacy is a doctrine of the devil as you incorrectly assert, then Jesus and Paul were Satanists, along with Melchizedek, Elias, John the Baptist and the Apostles, amongst many others. Is that what you are attempting to claim? They were all frauds? The question you should be asking yourself is why so few "Bible believing" pastors practice the discipline of celibacy, since it is so highly praised by Christ and Paul? Christ also instructs his followers to fast.

The Catholic Church forbids the Sacrament of Marriage to no one. Those who seek the Sacrament of Holy Orders do so of their own free will under no compulsion and after several years of deliberation. Should a man who takes a vow of celibacy later find that he cannot live up to that vow he can request laicization and be freed from said vow. The Church doesn't have a seminarian paddy wagon in which men are forced at gun point into the clerical life. Your argument is disingenuous and fatally flawed.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Celibacy is different from chastity

Incorrect. The words are synonyms. All single Christians are called to live lives of celibacy/chastity outside of marriage. Sex outside of marriage, known throughout Scripture as fornication, is a sin. One could rightly define it as a doctrine of the devil. Although, from reading your convoluted logic, you probably don't.

celibacy (sèl´e-be-sê) noun
1. Abstinence from sexual intercourse, especially by reason of religious vows.
2. The condition of being unmarried.

chastity (chàs´tî-tê) noun
1. The condition or quality of being pure or chaste.
2. a. Virginity. b. Virtuous character. c. Celibacy.

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Again, celibacy is DIFFERENT from chastity.

Wrong. Crack open a dictionary.

[Bandolier]

The rash of rapes in the Church over the past few decades have not been male/female.

This has nothing to do with celibacy.

[B.R. Burton]

"Now, using your logic, if celibacy is a doctrine of the devil as you incorrectly assert, then Jesus and Paul were Satanists, along with Melchizedek, Elias, John the Baptist and the Apostles, amongst many others. "

Wrong. You are distorting my position. Celibacy is not evil, but mandated celibacy for some religious REQUIREMENT is.

"The Catholic Church forbids the Sacrament of Marriage to no one."

Priests cannot marry, and nowhere in the Bible is a priest forbidden to marry. Yes, indeed, they took a vow to do so, but where in the Bible is there a rule that you must take a vow to be a priest? In fact, the priests of Catholocism are not biblical at all. Purely man's tradition.

[B.R. Burton]

"Sex outside of marriage, known throughout Scripture as fornication, is a sin. One could rightly define it as a doctrine of the devil. Although, from reading your convoluted logic, you probably don't."

Apparently name-calling isn't a problem, but fornication is most certainly a sin.

"from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language"

Of course you know in the English language that the same word can mean different things in different contexts, and that synonyms do not always imply an exactitude of meaning - chaste and celibate can be synonyms, but my point is that celibacy - in terms of lifelong abstaining from marriage, is different from the daily Christian abstaining from intercourse. If you want to get technical in etymology, that's one thing, but we are talking of theological concepts, and I used two different words to explain two different concepts, which is perfectly acceptble in the English language.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I believe it should be optional because the Bible never commands celibacy, and calls the rule of celibacy a doctrine of demons.

Wrong. You are distorting my position. Celibacy is not evil, but mandated celibacy for some religious REQUIREMENT is.

No distortion at all. just using what you've written verbatim to disprove your argument. You need to make up your mind and stop the tap dance. Are you now inferring that a "doctrine of demons" as you earlier claimed celibacy to be, is in fact not evil? You are contradicting yourself. You do understand that celibacy is a discipline and not a doctrine, don't you? You also no doubt understand that Christ counsels His followers to perfection: Matthew 5:48, 16:24, 22:30. The vows of poverty, celibacy and obedience are part of that counsel. Christ Himself was celibate, obedient and lived a life of poverty. He also tells us that in heaven we shall neither marry nor be married. Obviously celibacy is a higher calling and hardly a "doctrine of demons," as you would want us all to believe. You ignored the question about why so few "Bible believing" ministers practiced the discipline. One has to wonder why.

Priests cannot marry, and nowhere in the Bible is a priest forbidden to marry. Yes, indeed, they took a vow to do so, but where in the Bible is there a rule that you must take a vow to be a priest? In fact, the priests of Catholocism are not biblical at all. Purely man's tradition.

Incorrect. Paul wrote that bishops and deacons could only be married once. If they were widowers and remarried they were not to be chosen. Priests who were baptized Catholics cannot remain in active ministry and marry in the Latin Rite. Priests can request laicization and then marry if they choose. Once the Sacrament of Holy Orders, ordination, is conferred upon a man he remains a priest even if laicized. A laicized priest may not administer the Sacraments. A person only ceases to be a priest when he is dismissed, known in the secular world as "defrocked", from the priesthood. You do know of course that there are priests in the Catholic Church who are married, don't you? Married Protestant ministers who convert to the Latin Rite may, with the Popes approval, be ordained and remain married. However, they agree, prior to ordination, that if their spouse should die that they will adopt the discipline of celibacy and be as Paul wrote "the husband of one wife,". You also surely know that there are 22 Churches in communion that form the Catholic Church, don't you? As for your claim that "the priests of Catholocism(sic) are not biblical at all. Purely man's tradition." you also know that that is false or you are ignorant of Scripture. The word priest first appears in Scripture in Genesis 14:18 with regard to Melchisedech. We also read in Psalm 109 that once a priest always a priest. In Hebrews 7 and 8 we read of the priesthood of Christ according to the order of Melchisedech, a priest without geneology; no wife and no children.

We know from John 21:25 that not everything Jesus did was written down and we also know that Apostolic Tradition, whether oral or written, is to be adhered to: 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:14, 3:6. We also know that the Apostles gave up everything to follow Christ according to His instructions.

Where in Scripture is it written that one must take vows in order to be married? That discipline should be done away with as well, right? Where in the Bible do we find the words "incarnation", "Trinity" and "Bible"? We do know that the Apostles made solemn promises to Christ in order to follow Him. A vow is a solemn promise to God. There were no caveats. You also know where the Bible came from as well, don't you? Another thing we know from Scripture is that "Bible alone" isn't in there. It's nothing more than a man made doctrine.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

Apparently name-calling isn't a problem

Please point out where I've resorted to name-calling.

[B.R. Burton]

"Are you now inferring that a "doctrine of demons" as you earlier claimed celibacy to be, is in fact not evil?"

Yes, there was distortion, as I specifically stated the RULE of celibacy.
"You are contradicting yourself."

No, I've been quite consistent in my arguments here.

"Christ Himself was celibate, obedient and lived a life of poverty."

The Messiah will MARRY the Church. So if he were married to another, that would exclude Him from marrying His Bride.

"He also tells us that in heaven we shall neither marry nor be married. Obviously celibacy is a higher calling and hardly a "doctrine of demons,"

Not quite. We shall be married to the Lord, corporately, as part of the Bride. We shall neither marry nor be married, not for some reason of celibacy, but because the nature of our glorified bodies.

"The word priest first appears in Scripture in Genesis 14:18 with regard to Melchisedech. We also read in Psalm 109 that once a priest always a priest. In Hebrews 7 and 8 we read of the priesthood of Christ according to the order of Melchisedech, a priest without geneology; no wife and no children."

Malki-Tzaddik was the King of Jerusalem, and Priest, and was not of the geneology of Aharon. He is a picture of the Messiah.

"We also know that the Apostles gave up everything to follow Christ according to His instructions."

Right.

"Where in Scripture is it written that one must take vows in order to be married? That discipline should be done away with as well, right?"

If man's tradition contradicts God's tradition, then man's tradition should be done away with. This is simply man's tradition, and doesn't intrude on Scripture. Moreover, this simply proves my point, the tradition of Catholic priests, and not only Catholic but Orthodox and any religion outside of Judaism that officially has a "priest" - is not Biblical. Now, ALL believers are priests. That the Bible DOES say.

"Where in the Bible do we find the ords "incarnation", "Trinity" and "Bible"?"

The first two are not there, the third could probably be translated into "Book", biblos, I guess, but the concepts are there. The concept of the various man-made traditions of the Catholic church, and some other mainstream Christian denominations are not there. For instance, Easter. Easter comes from the pagan word, ISHTAR. In fact the Messiah WAS NOT RESURRECTED ON EASTER - HE WAS RESURRECTED ON YOM HABIKKURIM. The Messiah was NOT born on Christmas. He was born on Sukkot. The Messiah did NOT die on Good Friday. He died on Passover. . . etc.

"You also know where the Bible came from as well, don't you?"

Of course. I know the history of its writing and codification.

"Another thing we know from Scripture is that "Bible alone" isn't in there. It's nothing more than a man made doctrine."

God's Word is enough to guide the feet of those in darkness, as it is a lamp unto one's feet, and if a doctrine contradicts its Word, then it should be discarded. I have many extra-Biblical books that help give insight to its words, etc., but all things should be weighed against Scripture. That's why I made my original comment here. I do not like agreeing with Left-wing liberals, cafeteria catholics or anyone who would seek to diminish the major force for good that the Catholic Church creates.

[B.R. Burton]

"name calling" should be changed to "insulting", here:

"Although, from reading your convoluted logic, you probably don't [think that fornication is a sin]"

That is utterly false. Fornication is a sin, and condemned in the Bible.

[Squantos]

Too much South Park Laz....... if that's possible.

Stay Safe !