Arizona Burning Because Environmentalists Oppose Thinning The Forests?

msnbc.com ^

[Retired Chemist]

CALL FOR BETTER FOREST MANAGEMENT

Arizona Gov. Jane Hull compared the fire to an out-of-control train at a press conference Sunday in which she highlighted the need to thin the often-dense forest growth amassed after decades of battling wildland blazes. Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats.

“Mother Nature is saying to Arizona and the West, we have got to clean up these forests,” she said. “Nature is telling us that we got to get this under control.”

[NorseWood]

When I was young and lived in a rural area of Northern California, the locals would go out every couple of years and burn off the underbrush that is the fuel for so many of these wild fires. Everyone in town knew who did it, but we understood why they did it. The massive amounts of dead underbrush makes for such a hot fire that no trees can survive. But if just the grass is burning, the trees actually thrive. The fire helps the germination of many seeds. It gets rid of a lot of insect pests too. The American Indians recorded that huge fires swept across portions of the US periodically. It is nature's way of keeping it all under control. We need to go in and clean out the forest floors. The benefits in tree gronth, wild life, etc. will be large. But our foolish forestry and logging policies have created a monter, as we are seeing in Arizona.

[S.O.S121.500]

I've enjoyed dog, suppose wolf is just larger cuts.....not LOL.

WACKO bastards are trying to re-introduce a maybe its a wollf (+/-80% geneticly)" in AZ while ignoring the armed guards (federal marksmen) in Montana sitting at rural school bus stops to keep real wolves from molesting school kids......

If you like social animals, try mice, beavers, prairie dogs, hares, new world monkeys, ants, bees, etc.......they all eat well too.

[cake_crumb]

40 PERCENT?? Wow. While I believe that the addition of particulates wildfires add to the air DO effect climate (strictly empirical evidence) I never thought it might be that high. Of course, the slash and burn "farming" techniques of the peasants in Third World countries very well COULD drive it up that high...

Where do the envirowackos fall in such a debate? Well...if it ain't in their political agenda, it doesn't exist. On the other hand, I can see them scheming to force the US to stop all industrial emmissions, so that the poor third world farmers, downtrodden by the mean old US businessmen, can slash and burn with impugnity....

Yep. Makes sense, in a twisted, Third Way, global government sort of way.

[hope]

Of Course the Sierra Club denies any of this. Here's a news release from them today.....

NEWS RELEASE: June 24, 2002

A Few Facts for the Governor Hull

Mistaken and Misinformed on Arizona Fires

Governor Jane Hull's comments about environmentalists and the fires in Arizona are misguided and misinformed. She has made allegations without having the facts about the forests, about the forest management, or about the work that groups like the Sierra Club are doing. There are many factors that have contributed to the fires in Arizona this year. They include:

• Decades of fire suppression and 100 years of logging the large trees that have left a forest of dense small trees and a huge fuel load;
• Extreme drought and high winds that have made this situation especially dangerous (there is about one fourth the normal rainfall in these areas);
• and Careless or deliberate actions by people -- both fires were human-caused.

Conservationists, including the Sierra Club, have urged saving the large fire resistant old growth trees and have supported thinning the forest of underbrush and smaller trees (12 inches or smaller in diameter). The Sierra Club has also supported controlled burning to remove the underbrush, under the right weather conditions with adequate moisture in the future and low winds. These types of activities would better mimic natural conditions and leave in place the most fire resistant trees -- the large old pines.

A century of managing our national forests for large-scale timber cutting has left a more fire prone forest today. We are urging the Forest Service to stop subsidizing logging, and invest in fire prevention through thinning the forests near communities, where these activities will do the most good. With scarce dollars and millions of acres of smaller dense trees, the top priority should be to focus on thinning forests closest to communities (within 1ž2 mile of structures, according to the experts) and on homeowners clearing away brush and wood from next to their houses and freeing their roofs of twigs and needles.

There is no way to totally avoid fire in the forest; it has always been part of the forest as much as the weather, but minimizing the impacts is possible. And speaking of the weather, the intense drought conditions are clearly a major factor in the fires - there has been about one fourth the normal rain and snow in most of these areas over the last year.

The drought is a key factor and it is certainly a reach on the part of the politicians to blame conservationists for the weather. We urge the governor, Senator Kyl, and other elected officials to get their facts straight before pointing fingers. What we need now from our elected officials is leadership and an effort to bring people together to solve problems, help the people who have lost their homes, and promote better management of the forests for the long run. What we don't need is more rhetoric which serves only to fan the flames of hate and divisiveness.

Visit our Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) page to learn how urban areas can protect themselves from wildfires. Download The Wildland-Urban Interface: Protecting Communities from Forest Fires (200 KB pdf).

For more information go to www.arizona.sierraclub.org or check out the Southwest Forest Alliance website at www.swfa.org.

Grand Canyon Chapter
202 E. McDowell Rd, Ste 277
Phoenix, AZ 85004
Phone: (602) 253-8633 Fax: (602) 258-6533
Email: grand.canyon.chapter@sierraclub.org

Page updated: 06/22/02

Return to Press Releases and Action Alerts page

[cake_crumb]

"WACKO bastards are trying to re-introduce a maybe its a wollf (+/-80% geneticly)" in AZ while ignoring the armed guards (federal marksmen) in Montana sitting at rural school bus stops to keep real wolves from molesting school kids......"

Oh those idiots, doing that crap...may they rot in hell. Back in the '70's, I (and others) were trying to stop this unproven "genetec backbreeding" BS. The envirowackos came along and ruined all of the commonsense conservation efforts going on at the time. I am EXTREMELY not into this...my personal name for it "There Was an Old Lady Who Swallowed a Fly" brand of ...whatever it is. It isn't conservation. Next thing we know, we have a non-native PEST which has to be gotten rid of...and various game commissions then drop in what they consider to be a natural predator.

The PA game commission needed large predators to drop the rodent population. They brought in coyotes. The coyotes reproduced like mad and interbred with domestic dogs, creating those WONDERFUL coydogs. Also in my area, problem bears (double taggers) are dropped here because the tourists have taught them to eat people, and they figure there are few people here...and they have to keep up the tourist trade, right?? Anyhow, the bears don't eat anything but garbage and prople's farm animals.

Ah, but we used to have cougars..."panthers" here...so what does the game commission do? You know the problems they are having with mountain lions bothering the yuppies who wanted to move into the woods and commune with nature? You got it. Some of them are here, tags, familiarity with humans and all.

99 percent of Americans' in rural areas problems with wildlife comes from the interference of stupid people who feed them and make them dependent...then call in animal control when they become nuisances. Due to regulations caused in the most part by enviro wackos, these animals can't be destroyed, only relocated.

Beavers as social animals?? I do not think so, thank you. While good to eat when young, beavers have become so overpopulated in Northern PA and South Central NY that their dams interfere with the water supply, and get this...DESTROY FORESTS. Rich, huh?

[crz]

The study is ongoing..of course the schools love that sort of thing.
Tell you what. I attended a meeting a short while ago with forest products officials and such. The big companys are sick and tired of it! A couple of big shots got up and said they have in plans multi million dollar investment ventures for RUSSIA! So good work all you wackos..chase them out of this country. They said they can no longer depend on public timber being offered (USFS) for raw material to run their plants, that as well as the impossible gov. regulations. When this timber is taken off the market (No sales set up) it puts a strain on their own timberlands so they over cut and the harvest cycle is to short to maintain a viable harvest cycle. So to Russia they go. Lets see, they've (the enviro-nuts) destroyed the largest manufacturing industry in the USA by their selfish idiot ideas and now its on to farming..heck they've already been after mining. So the entire base industy (big three) in the country is about to be abolished because they want to make it a la la land for themselves to run wild.

[MARTIAL MONK]

This should be called the "Green Fire" in honor of those who caused it. This area was overgrown with "doghair" (young trees spaced a few inches or feet apart). Naturally the doghair would be removed by low intensity lightning fires. More recently it was cut and burned by loggers as a condition of their contract.

Thirty years ago this fire would have burned itself out or been put out in a few hours. I have put out a number of fires in this area by myself with a shovel that I carry for that reason. Since the restrictions on logging the undergrowth has built up to the point that fires quickly crown and take out the whole forest.

This area is not like the east where forests can quickly regrow. It is dry and regeneration is measured in centuries. Two hundred years from now people will still see the effects of this fire. All of the yellowjacks are gone and the area will be taken over juniper and scrub.

Git the dogs. I think I smell an environmentalist.

[cake_crumb]

"We are urging the Forest Service to stop subsidizing logging, and invest in fire prevention through thinning the forests near communities"</>

OK. To the Einsteins of the Sierra club...exactly how is the thinning supposed to be accomplished???

Idiots. If THEY'RE worried about forest fires, then they should stop building their houses in the middle of the woods and SHUT UP.

[crz]

Untill you prove to me you've had experience in the forest products industry your comments about logging are uneducated and off base. When have you ever worked in the woods? I doubt never, if ever.

[cake_crumb]

But the envirowackos WANT the timber product companies to leave! Egad...the economy is bad as it is...visions of more lost jobs and more deseased trees....I hope there is some way we can convince them to stay here.

[crz]

"Conservationists, including the Sierra Club, have urged saving the large fire resistant old growth trees and have supported thinning the forest of underbrush and smaller trees (12 inches or smaller in diameter)."

In the first place they are not conservationalists..they are extremist preservationalists. In the second their idea of harvesting only 12 inch and smaller is so far fetched its laughable...fits nicely into their "Old Growth" agenda.

[Liberty Teeth]

"Too bad all the habitats and those living in them have been burnt alive. The environmentalsist refer to this as "beauty."

They want humans out of these areas permanently, for Mother Earth. In some corners of the environmental movement (communists) they are probably smiling.

[cake_crumb]

Wait a minute...how much timber does Russia actually have? During the Cold War, the Soviets did EVERY SINGLE THING TO THE ENVIROMENT THAT THEIR COMRADES ACCUSED AMERICA OF DOING.

Are the businessmen you are referring to Japanese? In that case, an agreement can probably be reached. The administration IS willing.

[cake_crumb]

"The benefits in tree gronth, wild life, etc. will be large. But our foolish forestry and logging policies have created a monter, as we are seeing in Arizona"

Riiiiight. And building towns in dry Northeren California woods is 'beneficial'? In what way? BTW....thanks for the problem cats. We appreciate it.

[MARTIAL MONK]

The fire cut up just east of the area of the Pleasant Valley War. Lots of folks started down trails and never showed up at the other end. If I was an environmentalist I would stay out of the woods for a while. There are a bunch of people whose family lines go back generations in that area. They are tired if being told how to manage the forests by self appointed masters. They are hotter than the fire.

[crz]

Its vast crumb..its bigger than the USA and Canada put together. And yes they did screw things up bad during the cold war. The business? One is the worlds largest forest products company as of right now. Heck the Finns and Swedes are already over there I understand. And a whole lot of large contractors are talking about going now..even some small ones, such as this one. If they offer to ship my equipment over and the price is right and the political situation calms a bit more and gets more stable I may take a crack at it. They already have the tax system in place we should have (flat) and they are about to privatize their retirement (Social security) system. The Russians are poised to steamrole the rest of the world economically if they just get a better handle on their political problem.

[crz]

I got a first cousin that had/has an A frame home near Show Low. Havent heard of him yet though.

[Chewbacca]

There is actually a cool benefit to the forest burning up.
Next year after the winter rains and snow, the erosion of the soil from the runoff should fill the local streams and rivers with tons of gold nuggets.

Note to self: Buy dredging equipment and wetsuit.

[Liberty Teeth]

"We have got to share this planet with the other living creatures, and sharing means not merely preserving them in zoos or National Parks, but setting aside huge areas. Whole regions perhaps that will be free of human interference. Ideally, I would like to see certain large areas of the planet set off-limits to human entry of any kind, even aerial over flights."

-Edward Abbey-Deep Ecology for the 21st Century: The Natural Wonder: An Ecocentric World View. New Dimensions Radio, 1998.

http://www.ruralcleansing.com/quotes.htm

[Lester Moore]

Every forest can use about two major fires every century in order to clear brush and regenerate itself. Otherwise they die.

I got it from a forest ranger in these AZ pine forests that an area would burn every 3 to 12 years.

I also think most of the stage for this inferno was set by the Smokey The Bear policy of the FS in which all fires were always put out, letting fuel stack up. Of course once it was stacked they couldn't just let hot fires burn thru the forests. Still it was fed. policy that created this monster.