Arizona Burning Because Environmentalists Oppose Thinning The Forests?

msnbc.com ^

[Retired Chemist]

CALL FOR BETTER FOREST MANAGEMENT

Arizona Gov. Jane Hull compared the fire to an out-of-control train at a press conference Sunday in which she highlighted the need to thin the often-dense forest growth amassed after decades of battling wildland blazes. Some environmentalists have fought the move, saying it would disrupt habitats.

“Mother Nature is saying to Arizona and the West, we have got to clean up these forests,” she said. “Nature is telling us that we got to get this under control.”

[cake_crumb]

"Periodic natural forset fires thin the forest floor without massive damage to the forest! Stopping these fires causes the tinder to increase and results in the massive disasterous fires we are seeing!"

Take rake and go out and rake all the fuell up off the forest floors. When lightening stikes, it'll light up all the pine trees, which will then go BOOOOM!

The stuff on the forest floor retains moisture. It's compost. That is not what is burning. What is burning is the dead, dry limbs and trees...deadfall due to overgrowth and lack of sunlight and nutrients.

The fires are burning on the TOP of the forest, jumping from treetop to treetop, and is called a "flashover". It is fuelled by the deadfall underneath...and the damp, composted leaves underneath give off methane, which is explosive and causes a updraft which makes fires jump for miles.

When the ground shakes and explodes...when the ground literally burns, you'll know.

(Hubby)

[crz]

The same thing can be done in a controled manner...its called logging. Or is that to far out for some to understand. Want to know what tree length skidding simulates? It simulates BURN! What happens when you drag a tree over the ground? You disrupt the very tinder you so advocate burning. After you replant. Is that so hard to understand?

[cake_crumb]

"What happens when you drag a tree over the ground? You disrupt the very tinder you so advocate burning."

Actually, when skidding, the disruption of the ground is limited to the area the tree is drug over. The tinder is pushed over to the sides. By logging, you open up an area so that young growth can flourish over the dead, dry tinder....making a natural firebreak. If a natural fire DOES break out, you have the access roads so you can get in to fight the fire.

You are trying to describe "treefarming", also known as "timber management". Pennsylvania has very GOOD timber management programs.

PA DNCR

NE PA Urban/Community Forestry Demo Program

(Hubby)

[rstevens]

True, but humans, many years ago, figured out how nature worked and was able to replenish the trees in areas where they were harvested.

This not only provided a continual growth, but for years provided fire breaks to reduce the spreading of fires set by natural causes.

A big problem now is that all of the logging roads have been overgrown and now it is impossible to effectively fight these raging fires.

We need to get back to letting commercial evdeavors, big logging and paper corporations, cut off the overgrowth, replant and manage the timber areas, as they did in the past.

[Retired Chemist]

An environmentalist who just appeared on FNC said that roads in the forest increase the risk of fire because they allow the public access!

[crz]

Looks as if there is another logger on here. Just got done watching O'Rielly. He had a nature nut on there who said that if we allow logging on these lands we will be subsidizing the logging. Now I didnt know that by bidding on public timber that I was being subsidized. I wonder when that happened..and where is my subsidized money?
Now to all you who think the same. THE TIMBER IS OFFERED UP ON BIDS! IT GOES TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER! IT IS LOGGED AND IF THE SALE COMES UP SHORT OF THE CRUISE, YOU DONE LOST THE DIFF'...in other words you paid for timber that was not there, and it does happen often! It is the loggers job to inspect the sales to determine if the timber cruised and offered is there or not. Does that sound like a subsidy? Only on scale sales do you not ever come up short...although I could tell you of some horror stories on scale sales also.
So, now lets put a pencil to it. There is what? Some 300 thousand acres burned? lets say 60% is/was merc timber. At about 450.00 per thousand for framing lumber wholesale and the timber runs at about 1500 bd ft per acre that would = what (conservative figures)? How much has this one fire cost in revenue overall..not just logging but at the mill?. Heck, lets include homes that could have been built and the construction jobs and the tires for the equipment to log, the trucking the fuel delivery jobs the stores the sawmill/forest products plant jobs and on and on. Not to mention the property damage! Millions upon millions have been wasted by the result of listening to these eco-extremists.

[cake_crumb]

"An environmentalist who just appeared on FNC said that roads in the forest increase the risk of fire because they allow the public access!"

Oh for crying out loud....somebody tell that moron (whoever he is) to let the forestry department go crashing through the brush with Unimogs to access the fire and create firebreaks....THEN HE WILL SEE ROADS!!!! ROADS!!

(Cake AND Hubby)

[driftless]

The same theory applies to prairies. Park rangers in many prairie states burn portions of prairies in controlled fires every year.

[Ken H]

Does anyone know how the amount of pollution from these fires compares to a large volcanic eruption?

[cake_crumb]

I can tell some tales about scale sales too. (You've obviously been there and done that)

What you scale and what THEY scale aren't necessarily the same thing.

What you grade as a number one, they might grade as a two.

What you say is a thousand board feet, THEY can say is only 900. You can walk a stand of timber and figure there is 100,000 board feet of number one and number two, but you might get two or three vaneer trees and the rest firewood. You don't know until you cut it...even if you bore-test it.

The only thing enviro wackos know about trees is that they have leaves on them. They don't even know what SPECIES they are.

We did test plots for the NY State forestry department. We made a grid, like a checkerboard. Some we clear cut, some we didn't touch, some we took out only the good trees and left the junk, some we took only junk and left the good trees....some we fenced off and some we didn't, to check deer damage. Some we reseeded, some we didn't. The whole area....near Naples NY was a conservation area...a ten-year experiment in timber management.

The ten years is about up now. I have to get back up there and see for myself what the results were.

(Hubby)

[S.O.S121.500]

Easy there UB....I think Right Wing Professor is one of ours and the text he posted was his offering to the sierra club....much knder than my usual SIERRA CLUB--HIKE TO HELL admonition.

[Retired Chemist]

Does anyone know how the amount of pollution from these fires compares to a large volcanic eruption?

A volcanic eruption contains many hazardous gases not found in smoke from a forest fire!

[cake_crumb]

"Does anyone know how the amount of pollution from these fires compares to a large volcanic eruption?"

In general, it's less. Heaven help us of one wildfire gets big enough to equal the particulates ejected into the atmosphere by, say, Mt St Helen's alone. BUT...if you combine the particulates from massive wildfires with a couple of small eruptions (Normal. Happen every year) THEN you are changing the climate. And it DOESN"T get warmer, it gets colder. Look at the years 1992 and '93'. Heavy snow in winter, cold, overcast summers.

[S.O.S121.500]

Wolves, BTW are different. They are social animals more like us...which is why our ancestors were able to turn them into the ancestors of the modern dog.

BULLSHIT

[Salvation]

“Mother Nature is saying to Arizona and the West, we have got to clean up these forests,” she said. “Nature is telling us that we got to get this under control.”

Repeating some good news in the middle of all this havoc.

[cake_crumb]

LOL...hey...I like 'em. I get along with them. Don't worry, I'm not a nut. I like rabbits and deer too..they're delicious.

[S.O.S121.500]

knder is the same as kinder.

[crz]

There is a study being done on the pollution being done by fires in N American by the UV of Wi and a couple of others. What prompted it was a statement by an Indonesia study claiming that up to 40% of air pollution is caused by wildfires worldwide. In Canada they tend to leave the fires burn up on/near the tree line in the far north. An area about the size of Wi is left to burn out often. The ground is rich in carbon. When the forest is burned it releases that carbon into the air and it continues as the tree shade is gone and the thawing further releases carbon each year till the forest grows back. That and wildfires such as these and the absolute ignorance of whats happening in Brazil and Indonesia is adding to the problem. My thought is the rape of the jungles in these countries are changing the weather patterns. That is the real cause of the weather problems we are having and NOT global pollutions. But I wonder where these fine enviro wackos are in that case? Could it be they are afraid to stick their noses in down in these countries?

[crz]

The USFS says a hardwood tree 7 and 1/2 inches in dia chest high is a sawlog tree...YA RIGHT!

[VOA]

OK, who thinned the forests for the millions of years before we were there?

As much as it pains me to say this...PBS's NOVA had a decent episode titled "Fire Wars"
that aired a few months ago.
It seemed to stick pretty much to facts and clearly identified differing points of views
on forest management.

The general historical view is that fires of natural origin would go through forested
areas on a random basis...but this occurred often enought that what you ended up with
was a forest with mostly big trees with open spaces between each other...and very little
flammable litter on the forest floor.

The show was good to talk fairly about the battle between those who oppose/promote
controlled burning as a way to imitate this natural method of forest "management"...and the
show was honest about how controlled burns sadly don't always stay controlled.

But while the current Arizona and Colorado fires are not fun, the show talked about the
big fire of 1910 (think that was the year). It was started by lighting strikes in
the West, burned millions of acres and killed something like 90 people (in what was sparsely
populated area). The story about people trying to escape and seeing belly-up fish
from the over-heated water in rivers and streams was pretty intense. And the smoke clouds that made
it all the way to NYC/East Coast.

Website for the episode at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/fire/