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To: Sir Gawain; Jefferson Adams
Let me try it this way:

I can no longer live in the state of California - I left in 1988 - because of guns that I own. Plus, after 1994, the type of guns that I like to shoot can no longer be imported into the US - that's an infringement on the 2nd Amendment.

What type of gun would that be?

If I speak against the Federal Government's "War on Terror" in public, the attorney general of the US has said - and the so-called "Patriot Act" states - that I might be considered a terrorist. So there goes freedom of speech, the 1st Amendment.

Have you even spoken out in public? Isn't FR.com considered a public forum? I think you might be over exaggerating on this one. If what you say is true, then everyone on FR.com has 'breached' the patriot act in some form or another.

The government, both federal and other, have shown how much they like to confiscate property - simply because you *might* be committing a crime. And it's damned hard to get it back - plus it will cost you a lot of money. Go to www.fear.org (Forfeiture Endangers Americans' Rights) if you want to see stats. That's the 5th Amendment.

Might be committing a crime? Sounds a bit nutty to me. Admittedly, I am not that familiar with the 5th amendment. But, if you haven't comitted a crime, isn't your fear unwarranted?

The federal government in many, many ways has taken away the rights of the individual states. Just one recent case is when Bush signed the Education bill a few weeks ago. That's the 10th Amendment.

And yet, the Philadelphia school district is now run by a private company. We have a sh!t-load of charter schools here in Michigan. I fail to see how holding school districts accountable takes away a State's rights.

Using Echelon, Carnivore, and God only knows what other tools, the government surveils our phone calls, email, etc. That's the 4th Amendment.

And you have undeniable proof they are listening and monitoring you?

People are being locked up without access to an attorney and without even being accused of a crime, especially since 9/11. There are people now behind bars that have been there for months - even years - who have never been charged with a crime. That's the 6th Amendment.

And they are not American citizens. This is a catch-22 because no matter what the gov't does, it can't win. Detain questionable people and possibly prevent further terrorist strikes, or, release them and be the scapegoat when an attack occurs. If these were Mexican illegals who were being held, would you still feel the same?

I would be very interested in hearing what your solutions are to the above 'loses' of freedom.

353 posted on 06/24/2002 12:21:22 PM PDT by rintense
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To: rintense
I'm just trying to figure out at what point you'll concede a loss of freedom. Go to NYC and try to legally carry concealed. Is that a loss of freedom if you can't? Yes or no. Go take a plane trip. Is the full body and possession search a loss of freedom? Yes or no.
354 posted on 06/24/2002 12:25:39 PM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: rintense
Let me try it this way:

OK

I can no longer live in the state of California - I left in 1988 - because of guns that I own. Plus, after 1994, the type of guns that I like to shoot can no longer be imported into the US - that's an infringement on the 2nd Amendment.

What type of gun would that be?

Doesn't matter. It was legal. Now it's not.

If I speak against the Federal Government's "War on Terror" in public, the attorney general of the US has said - and the so-called "Patriot Act" states - that I might be considered a terrorist. So there goes freedom of speech, the 1st Amendment.

Have you even spoken out in public? Isn't FR.com considered a public forum? I think you might be over exaggerating on this one. If what you say is true, then everyone on FR.com has 'breached' the patriot act in some form or another.

Indeed. And I have made it a point to not go too far in what I say. It's no longer safe to speak freely in this country.

The government, both federal and other, have shown how much they like to confiscate property - simply because you *might* be committing a crime. And it's damned hard to get it back - plus it will cost you a lot of money. Go to www.fear.org (Forfeiture Endangers Americans' Rights) if you want to see stats. That's the 5th Amendment.

Might be committing a crime? Sounds a bit nutty to me. Admittedly, I am not that familiar with the 5th amendment. But, if you haven't comitted a crime, isn't your fear unwarranted?

Why don't you visit fear.org and then you tell me? Many many people - thousands of people in the last 10 years - have lost everything from thousands of dollars in cash (might be drug money, you know, even when taken from little old ladies) to nice cars (I know about one guy's new Corvette - might be from drug profits {it wasn't) that he's spent thousands trying to get back). Go visit the website. It's an education in itself.

The federal government in many, many ways has taken away the rights of the individual states. Just one recent case is when Bush signed the Education bill a few weeks ago. That's the 10th Amendment.

And yet, the Philadelphia school district is now run by a private company. We have a sh!t-load of charter schools here in Michigan. I fail to see how holding school districts accountable takes away a State's rights.

Have you seen what the curricula is that the fedgov is requiring? Ever heard of the NAEP test?

Using Echelon, Carnivore, and God only knows what other tools, the government surveils our phone calls, email, etc. That's the 4th Amendment.

And you have undeniable proof they are listening and monitoring you?

Only if you consider their actual official admission proof. It's not that they're listening to me specifically - it's that they're capturing ALL phone conversations and/or email and then scanning for keywords. Without probable cause. That's unconstitutional.

People are being locked up without access to an attorney and without even being accused of a crime, especially since 9/11. There are people now behind bars that have been there for months - even years - who have never been charged with a crime. That's the 6th Amendment.

And they are not American citizens. This is a catch-22 because no matter what the gov't does, it can't win. Detain questionable people and possibly prevent further terrorist strikes, or, release them and be the scapegoat when an attack occurs. If these were Mexican illegals who were being held, would you still feel the same?

BZZZZT! Wrong answer. Many of them ARE American citizens.

Bush's comment about Padilla the other day was classic - "He's a bad guy and he needs to be behind bars." No evidence. No proof. No actual crime committed. All required by the Constitution, by the way. Just "he's a bad guy" so it's OK to lock him up. Don't you see the precedent that sets???

I would be very interested in hearing what your solutions are to the above 'loses' of freedom.

Simple. Restore the Constitution that they all swear to uphold and defend.

376 posted on 06/24/2002 4:00:26 PM PDT by Jefferson Adams
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To: rintense

"I can no longer live in the state of California - I left in 1988 - because of guns that I own. Plus, after 1994, the type of guns that I like to shoot can no longer be imported into the US - that's an infringement on the 2nd Amendment."


What type of gun would that be?
- rintense



Semi-auto firearms that LOOK like assault weapons, are the 'type'.

But that isn't the worse of the 'new laws'. You can no longer buy these evil looking weapons, --- OR SELL them.
And you cannot give them away to your grandson.
-- At your death, the state will collect & destroy them. -- I kid you not.

Look kid, all this is old news, well discussed on numerous threads you should have read.

-- *Before* you claimed we've lost no rights.
389 posted on 06/24/2002 7:48:36 PM PDT by tpaine
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