Just some thoughts......from an insomniac conservative....

redrock

Just some questions...

redrock

What, pray tell, are the answers?

Good one, redrock! I'll be watching this thread too. I'd like to hear the answers as well.

Whew, I'm glad I'm a Constitutionist rather than a Republican.

Tough questions

I'm registered (R) just to vote in the primaries

CONVINCE us ...that you have not become slavish followers of GWB...in much the same way as some did with Clinton....that you will ask the 'hard questions' (and demand the answers).

I'm sooooo tempted to ping the Bushbots about this one.

The problem is your asking a question that has the conclusion already built into it.

Of course as a Republican I do not support violations of the Constituin, my freedoms, or my beliefs. I will do whatever I can to make sure my party holds on to those beliefs, but your not asking me that your asking in a round about way, when will I give up my Party for something "better" and my anwser is never. Instead I will work to make it better. Trying to form some other party that only restates the beliefs of the one I'm already a part of will never work and all you'll end up doing is electing the party that you relly hate.

The Republican party has gone through some rough times in the past, and I admit this one is a bigge, but we have gotten through and are better for it.

So I've got a question for you, when are you going to work to make the party better by either running for election or helping to elect those whithin the party who support your beliefs.

Republicans have a hard time. I think they have a harder time than the Democrats, because the Democrats have basicly sold their souls to further their agenda. Witness the defense of Clinton, his criminality, his licivious behavior, his sellout of the nation, his debased human condition. I think Bush supporters and those of us who are not sold on him would agree, that above all else, we DO NOT want to become a group of people who will support OUR MAN through anything to maintain power. However, in the interest of civility, I want it known that I do not think Bush supporters have reached the level of Clinton supporters. Bush being the honorable man that he is, how could they.

At least we are asking the question of how much will we tollerate. As a non-Bush supporter, I salute the Bush supporters who are honest. There are some who are willing to accept that Bush makes mistakes and weigh them. I say fine. I may disagree with their overall take, but at least they are thinking. Clinton supporters were so far gone, they never asked of themselves question one.

What we each have to assess for ourselves is how far we are willing to go. After assessing each individual act by Bush, we must take them collectively and determine if he is the man we thought he was. Hey those who do not support Bush should be doing this. Those who support him should be also. And we should decide not to slam each other for our individual decisions. Non-Bush supporters such as myself should be willing to go back into the fold if Bush can prove that we have misjudged him. And Bush supporters should be willing to reassess as well.

Now, as to individual decisions, I will not slam someone who honestly thinks Bush has made his mistakes but that he is overall a very good President. I might slam someone who fawns on the man to the point that they will not accept the fact that he can do any wrong. My candidate could do wrong. Clinton could do wrong. Even George Bush can do wrong. And he has. What it all comes down to, is this. In four or eight years, will this nation's budget be smaller? Will our education system have turned back toward the right and have made marked progress? Will we have turned the corner on the demise of our defense forces? And most importantly of all, will our individual rights we in tact? Will we have more or less freedom, more or less civil rights protection than we did when Bush took office? If the answers to these questions is no, or you aren't sure, then Houston, we have a problem.

I would like to encourage both sides to debate these issues. Knock off the name calling which I have participated in as much as the next guy. Discuss the Republican and third party issues. See if there is some commen ground. Quit asking the next guy if he's made as many phone calls, sent as man faxes, attended as many rallies or donated as much money as you have. Quit dismissing people because they supported someone who lost last time. You loss may be coming. Dismissing you wouldn't be productive either.

Folks, we need to find some common ground. These thousand or two reply threads where we trade insults and try to outlast the other guy are non-productive exercises in mutual self-destruction. Let's stop it. It was unproductive before the 2000 elections. It will unproductive in-between elections. It will be unproductive when the next elections occur. Let's work together and get through this.

Bush supporters, we third party supporters can be real a.h.s at times. And since your man won the election you have been too. Whatya say we agree to disagree and try to find some common ground. You are going to need every vote you can get in 2004. In 2002 we have important races where we ALL need to work together. I know in my state California, we must get behind Simon and do everything possible to get him in. It's very important. We have state and local races across the nation that will be decided this November. They are as important as the Simon race. Let's carry on our debates in a civil manner. Don't key off on every single comment made by us third partiers, and we'll try not to key off on each of yours.

As adults we should be able to put the animosity behind us and discuss issues on point. If you disagree, simply say I disagree. You don't have to say, you f----- a----ole, you're an idiot. Just say you disagree.

Let's put aside our trash talk and work toward giving Bush his Republican Senate. Then let the man put up or shut up for the following two years. I'd say that's a fair test we can all get behind.

To the Bush supporters I have tweaked, hey sorry. I don't hold grudges. Let's work together. Then we'll see how things shake out.

Trent Lott personifies my dilemma on this issue. There is no one I would less like to see as Senate Majority Leader. Except Tom Daschle.

In the real world, those are my choices. I don't like that my alternative to Tom Daschle is Trent Lott. I think Trent Lott is a worthless, spineless, blow-dried empty suit, who -- if the Republicans do re-take the Senate -- will let Tom Daschle run the place anyway, just as he did before Jeffords switched sides. I cannot express enough contempt for Trent Lott in this family forum. However, does that mean I would rather have Tom Daschle instead, just for spite?

I had my bout with spite. I had it in 1992, and my reward was eight years of William Jefferson Clinton. Lots of us showed ol' man Bush just what we thought about 'read my lips.' Sumbitch can't keep a promise, we'll show him, we'll vote for Ross Perot.

Been there, done that, got the stained dress. Never again.

ALL men lose when freedom fails and good men rot in filthy jails. And those who cry "Appease, appease..." are hanged by those they sought to please.

First it is not a Democratic party. It is the Democrat party. Second this country is a Republic not a Democracy. In a democracy the majority rule. Majority rule is mob rule. Mob rule is CHAOS. "The cornerstone of the Republican philosophy is the belief that each person is responsible for their own place in our society. Individuals are encouraged by the Republican Party to work to secure the benefits of society for themselves, their families and for those who are unable to care for themselves. Democrats are more willing to subordinate individual rights to the assumed needs of the group. They assume that society collectively is responsible for each of its members. They place less emphasis on individual enterprise and initiative."
"Republicans believe that government should be limnited to doing for people those things which they cannot do for themselvwes. The right to determine individual destiny should lie in the hands of the individual. Similarly, Republicans believe governmental power and resources should be kept close to the people through their state and community leaders, rather than cetralized in distant big government." I am not that smart. This is from material put out by the California Republican Party, titled "Is there a difference?"
You can get the whole thing from The California Republican Party, 1903 West Magnolia Blvd., Burbank, CA 91506 or at www.cagop.org. You can also pick it up at any Republican registration table in So. California, at the mall where the Republican Women are registering Republicans for the 2002 election. If you don't know why you should be a Republican after you read it I only have one comment. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity is forever.

The bots will come out of the woodwork on this one buddy.

You hit the nail on the head.

I left the GOP after the Impeachment Trial joke. 32 years of work, money, and votes for the GOP as a loyal party member.

When the "leaders" of the party became willing to openly trade honor and integrity for "political capital and power" I accepted the fact that I could vote for whomever I wished as a citizen not aligned with any "party".

Someone else stated he registered GOP so he could vote in primaries. I have gotten to the point that it really doesn't matter. I vote on election day for the candidate the most meets my beliefs. Granted it will usually be a Republican but they can't count on either my vote or my physical/financial support any longer.

The GOP as a political party is so similar to the DemocRATs. And the NEW BASE of the GOP is likewise the same as the base of the Democrats in that anything done to acquire political capital and power is OK.

Don't kid yourself the NEW BASE of the GOP only wants conservatives around on election day for their votes. They know they can't win without us but once the election is passed they can't distance themselves fast enough from us.

The majority of American do not belong to either party. This is the ground that both parties actively attempt to recruit from. One day a leader will rise that will be the popular President. One day. When the steeple get tired of the daily oats feed to them. Until then it's spin, spin, spin. Hopefully, it will not be after all hell has broken out. You in this forum should be thankful. Your informed no matter what your political ideology is. There are tons of people out there who really have no clue. Scary as it sounds, they are the majority.

God Save the Republic.

GReetings redrock, you raise some very interesting questions. I do not have answers only humble observations.

Few men, even of the greatest and highest virtue and principle can easily turn their heads from the lure of gold and subsequent power. IMHO, it takes an even greater man to stand firm and staunch against the vagaries of self interest and promotion. Heck, we have a generation of elected government officials who seem to believe that it is all about them and their political careers rather than "we the people." And their narvana, or the nectar they seek, is our hard earned tax money.

Politics offers ample opportunity for men and women to faithfully and honorably serve their oath of office or to faithfully serve their own ambitions.

Both political parties and their elected officials suffer from men and women who would do anything to serve their own ambitions. Hence, we see no overwhelming desire on their part to enact term limits on themselves.

More interesting to me is to see these characters accumulate vast amounts of wealth, perks, influence, prestige and an overriding sense of self-indulgence and self-importance which would have our Founding Fathers rolling in their graves to see what has become of their plans for our young Republic's continued success. Do we ever hear them complain about their medical plans, or their pension plans that we pay for? No way. Do we ever see any action on their part for responsibility and accountability? Does anyone in government ever get the boot, or the pink slip?

Sadly, for our Constitution and the memory of our Founding Fathers for their constant wariness and vivid warnings to us as mere citizens towards those who reach powerful positions in government, these Congress dudes have seemingly made career preservation their primary oath of office.

Who said the paragraph that's in italics?

Carolyn

I believe that this is an open invitation to a flame war.

I'll pass.

Well redrock CONVINCE us.......That any party or man we vote for is gonna do a damn thing every one candidate from the last election has shown its true colors since and not a damn one has held up to the srutiny of its constituants ....so go figure these people dont listen to anything tell me that harry brown or john mccain would have done a better job that so far there colors have been shown to be false to this country and to their own party

So CONVINCE us.......We should vote for anyone else period whats that you say its hard to answer considering were at war hmmmmm

Know what i might vote for Ron Paul if he ran Allen Keyes Maybe And thats a weak maybe

Untill one of them can show me a track record of being for the country and its people and not for the pocketbook and its special interests ill stick with G.W.B.

Maybe that make me a bush bot if it does oh well to me it just makes sence

Bush Is Lord!

The Gospel According To My Old Man

When I was awakening to the world of political ideology, I sat with my father one afternoon, and watched a news program about the American Socialist Party, their goals, and their presidential candidate. One of the speakers was a man who had fled Castro, and now promoted socialism in the US.

I was incensed by what I was watching, and I loudly proclaimed that these people, needed to be thrown in jail for treason, specially this Cuban socialist idiot. I made the comment that his father must have been simply mortified at his son's treachery...and waxed on about the dishonor he was bringing to his parents, should rain on him three hundred fold.

My father said something very disturbing to me then, I thought he had gone insane, and left home disgusted at him.

He said: "I brought you here so that if you wanted to, you could become a socialist or even a communist."

It took me years to figure out what he was telling me.

My old man believes in freedom, the freedom to make whatever choices you wish to make, within the confines of the law. He believes that free men can make the choice to become communists, a choice that was taken from us in Cuba, because communism was the ONLY choice.

In this point in my life, I still abhor communism, but I will fight to the death for an American's right to chose communism.

You thread on dangerous grounds when you dismiss anyone and everyone who doesn't think like you do as being brainwashed, or when you argue that the choices free people make when advancing their political ideology are wrong.

Listen to the gospel according to my old man.

The day we take away people's ability to make their own choice in government, is the day that the Republic has truly fallen.

I don't have to convince you of anything other than to respect my choices, as I respect yours.

Valid points; valid questions.

I consider myself a staunch Constitutionalist.......but have been a registered Republicans for most of my adult life. I have not been particularly happy with my Party for some time. Generally, I believe Bush to be a very good, decent man..............but I DO have serious problems with many of his spendthrift policies, "reaching out" to liberal Democrats (which looks remarkably like "rolling over" to have one's belly scratched.......but that's another topic), etc.

However, I think I know why folks such as us fight for and vote for Republicans.

Republicans are the perpetual underdogs. The Dems controlled Congress for decades and gave us, particularly under Democratic Presidents, horrific domestic policies that have tossed trillions of hard-earned taxpayer dollars right down the toilet. You know the "programs"; I don't have to enumerate them. We felt that, given a chance, the Republicans would at least have the decency to stave off such Socialistic legislation.............and we hoped beyond hope that they would even reverse some of it/them. To some extent, this happened.......but not nearly enough.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the Republican Party is paranoid as all living hell, and that same Party has come to believe that it must adopt successful Democratic Party tactics in order to win (i.e. "triangulation", appeasement of special interests, adoption of politically correct stances, etc., etc., ad nauseum).

What the damned Party must do is return to its roots and realize that THAT is the only way they'll win and win big. I got sick and tired of hearing what a "genius" Karl Rove was in the way he ran the 2000 election.

It was an unmitigated disaster. Sumbitch should have been fired.

Bush had to squeak by via electoral college votes while getting his arse kicked in the popular vote. THAT never should have happened. Bush could very well have supported the views of the Conservatives........as Reagan did.........and he would have stomped the filling out of Gore at the polls. Rove was too dense and too haughty to see that.

Let's just say that I'll be watching the 2004 elections very, very closely. I'm this close to bolting this schizo Party, and let them wallow in their paranoia.

The brain cavaties have been washed and polished. They are now shiny in both the RINO's & DINO's. Neither group has any idea what is happening to America.