Posted on 06/22/2002 6:50:44 AM PDT by aomagrat
But let me just see if I understand you.
May I infer from your post that you think christians as a group should:
I guess under certain circumstances I could agree with a couple of the above, but all in all you suggestions seem contrary to my understanding of the teachings of Christ.
BTW: I thought He said to Satan "Get thee behind me Satan."
At any rate, you said:
God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up.
Well, there you go. Maybe the approach that is apprporiate at a funeral where family members are mourning the loss of a loved one would be the kinder, gentler, more compassionate one. Maybe you could leave out the part about the fire burning and the Devil poking your fornicating drunk dead daddy with his pitchfork.
Maybe you could just say something about learning from his life and his death and from his strengths and his weaknesses, then pray for the soul of the deceased and the well-being of the living. The death of someone close to us gives us occasion to reflect upon the transience of life, and it would seem a good time to point out that we might all ask ourselves what we would do with our lives and that an end will come and things matter.
I mean, at any given moment there are seemingly an infinite number of sentences a christian might form, you always choose some words over others. I think it reasonable to expect that when someone accepts an invitation to deliver a eulogy, they will say something that is both kind and helpful.
Besides, I haven't said he should be sued for liable, although if he commits it he should. I have said that he should be sued for fraud and infliction of emotional pain. Possibly breach of trust or some such.
If someone's kid has nightmares about this for years, he should pay damages.
A funeral is a good place to look for people who are dangerously close to suicide, it is no trivial matter.
But if you get a real, live, preacher, who is not just working for the money, you run the risk of hearing something you don't want to hear.
"Your Time Is Gonna Come"??
A ridiculous comparison. A better one would be a bunch of Irish hiring a caterer without specifying and getting Mexican. Maybe surprising, maybe unwanted, but hardly fraudulent. ...Besides why did they hire a minister - a person whose primary job is to spread what he understands to be the word of God, and to educate on the path to Salvation - instead of just a local poet?
Is it too much to ask of a minister to say a prayer over the loved one as he is buried? If so, maybe there will arise people that will pray for the dead without feeling they also have to condemn him. Seems to be many willing to pray for people on FR.
Frankly if I felt a minister was looking to use the life of my loved one as an example to scare others - I wouldn't want him there anyway. All I would be asking for is a sweet respectful goodbye to the life of one I loved. I would never put that loved one in the position of being ridiculed and condemned in front of his friends as he goes to his grave. What a lasting memory for those left behind.
Fortunately - I have never run across one of the preacher abusers who seek only a platform to condemn and show their own supposedly exalted status - at the expense of the mourners and the dead who is being buried.
Ohhhh,this really is glorious.I can only imagine that scene. LOL So,he didn't just call out the dead guy, he told the 'patrons' "you're going to be joining him too".Oh that is so good.Just give them all hell Pastor;I'm sure he'll do it again.
Well, let's take those in order.
What fraud has this minister committed? Unless there a contract that specified that the minister would not say certain things, there was no fraud. Unless there was an exchange of value, ie, was he paid, there was no fraud. Since there is no evidence of an enforceable contract, then there is no basis for fraud.
What emotional pain? The article only states that the mourners didn't like the euology. That hardly constitutes emotional pain. (If you believe it does then you would also have to believe that a meal served not to your satisfaction constitutes emotional pain.)
But, let's discuss emotional pain in a little more depth. Suppose a Hindu or Muslim is exposed to a Christian sermon that says Christ is the only way to heaven, has he experienced emotional pain? If a minister condemns homosexuality and a gay/lesbian hears, has that person experienced emotional pain? Would you allow lawsuits in these cases? If you think about this only a little, I'm sure you'll conclude that any religious teaching is likely to cause emotional pain to someone (remember there are aetheists who find even the mention of religion emotionally painful).
"If someone's kid has nightmares about this for years, he should pay damages."
Oh, yes, glory be, we must certainly protect the children from religion, particularly the expression of a religion we disagree with.
First, the start of my discussion had to do with Yeti's comment that the Preacher committed Fraud by not saying nice things.
Second, what you've said above is rather an issue of priorities, is it not?
Many Protestants consider this useless - and that those that do such are engaged in myth.
and the well-being of the living
Ummmm. Wasn't there some mention of "holier-than-though" attitudes, and worry about offense?
I see on this thread and others comments from "Christians" that they are being persecuted and subjected to vicious attacks. With crap like this, it's no wonder that they are hated. They wouldn't recognize Jesus if he walked in the door of their "Church".
If he was a sinner who never accepted Christ. Which you would have to assume so since there is no profession of faith mentioned. Then a pastor would have to conclude that he was unsaved and went to hell for his sins.
If I was asked to do his Eulogy I would have politely declined, knowing the life that he led, because I could not be honest about the dead person to his family
By GARY McELROY - Staff Reporter
A Loxley street preacher who screamed at a funeral that the deceased was burning in hell said Tuesday he was beaten by mourners for telling the truth.
While Orlando Bethel vowed his battle against evil has only begun, one relative at the service said he believes Bethel set out to incite the grievers because he was bitter over a family land squabble.
The incident occurred June 14 at the Pine Grove Baptist Church in Loxley at the funeral of Lish Taylor, an uncle of Bethel's wife, Glynis.
Bethel claims Loxley police did nothing after "a mob" beat him.
"They said it was attempted murder," Loxley Police Chief Cliff Yetter said Tuesday. "It was a little scratch on his shoulder."
Yetter said Bethel's verbal assault "slandered the family of the deceased. ... He told them the man in the coffin was going to hell, calling them whoremongers."
Neither of the Bethels disa greed with claims that Orlando Bethel screamed out during the solemn gathering, condemning all to "a lake of fire."
He was only supposed to sing, Orlando Bethel admitted, "but the Holy Ghost told me to really speak the truth -- I said this man was no longer with us because he is in hell, that they needed to repent of their sins, there was a lesbian scheduled to sing, and there were fornicators.
"That was when I was dragged to the back of the church by several men," he said.
"He almost got killed," Glynis Bethel said. She said her husband was seriously injured and she later found him "balled up in an embryo position."
The Bethels said Tuesday that after getting nowhere with Loxley police, they went to the Baldwin County Sheriff's Department, where a warrant was issued for Glynis Bethel's brother, Lemuel Molden, one of the alleged attackers.
According to a sheriff's spokesman, no warrant had been issued by late Tuesday.
Molden said Tuesday his sister had been away from Alabama for years and returned to Loxley from Miami about a year ago to claim part of a 50-acre home site left to family members when their grandmother died.
The Bethels ended up with about an acre, Molden said.
"They wanted to acquire all of the property and make it some kind of retreat," Molden said. "It didn't pan out like they thought it would, and I guess they are a little bitter."
Molden said that after his uncle died, Orlando Bethel called and asked to sing at the funeral.
Molden now says he believes the request was "premeditated."
"My uncle didn't like Orlando," Molden said. He said Bethel would often "go down and pray for my uncle," only to be ordered out of the house.
"I think he was being revengeful," Molden said of Bethel.
Molden said that when Bethel began his harangue at the church, mourners froze in shock.
"After he sings, he grabs the mike and yells that Lish is burning in hell. He just screamed it out."
Molden said that when someone cut off the microphone, Bethel gestured to a young man to bring a bag down front.
It was then, Molden said, that people began leaving, fearing there were weapons in the bag.
"He pulls out a megaphone," Molden said. "We tried to get him out of the church. I asked him, 'Orlando, why are you doing this?'" Molden said.
Molden said that later the Bethels drove up to his home. Orlando Bethel began screaming about hell, and Glynis Bethel, while "speaking in tongues," sprinkled olive oil on Molden.
"I thought it was gasoline," Molden said.
Molden, although frustrated at his sister and her husband, expressed respect for their "persistence."
As if to confirm this, the couple said Tuesday the battle for the souls of relatives and other Loxley sinners was only beginning.
"We are going to get a parade permit," Glynis Bethel said.
End of story.
My comments begin. As some surmised, it appears there was a bit more to this story than was reported in the original article. If this article is correct, then there is a good case for suing this guy, fraud, since it appears there was a contract for him to sing, not to preach. He could also be sued for disrupting a service too.
You are right. In fact, the pastor may have been right, but it was not appropriate, and he is not in the right to displace God by setting himself up as judge. He needs to turn the other cheek.
An admirable post, DD. Funny, too. The couple sounds like something from theOnion.com.
I will, hovever, hold to my belief that even if the guy had been asked to eulogize he would still be liable, since what he did was grossly deviant from what anyone could have reasonably expected and he would know that to be the case in advance.
"Even future sins are wiped away"
Bulldoody. It's worse once you become a Christian. Once you know God, and you screw up, you're worse off in the end. Read your bible.
But...and this is a BIG BUT...I have had personal experience with Glynis Bethel. She's a friggin' NUTCASE. Which leads me to believe that her husband is also a nutcase. Did you all hear about what they did at Christmas? Orlando put on a scary devil's mask, dressed up in a Santa suit, went to Loxley's Christmas parade, and made it his business to "out" Santa. I guarantee all those small children were traumatized by some scary man in a Santa suit and evil mask telling them that anyone who has anything to do with Santa Claus is going to hell! Granted, I prefer not to lie to my own children about Santa Claus...but why traumatize hundreds of kids?
Glynis is an egomaniac. I've personally witnessed her bragging on SEVERAL occasions...even once about owning a mink coat!!
Point is, they give fundamentalism a bad name. I am a firm believer in the bible. I'm not one of these new age wishy washy Christians who thinks you can just live a life full of sin and get to Heaven anyway. But Glynis and Orlando Bethel are CRAZY.
Most people would rather be outright lied to and have their ears tickled with pleasantries than hear the truth, much less face it. If you stand up for truth, regardless of how you state it, you will take a beating for it in some form or another. Because someone always has grounds to benefit from the lie - however minor it appears to be.
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