Muslim Community Speaks Out

WTLV-12 ^ | 06/14/02 | WTLV-12

[rebelsoldier]

Said is as full of shit as his religion. Let him prove that marriages at the age of ten were common in early America. It can't get any more "serious" between Muslims and Americans. They mass murdered thousands of helpless innocent Americans like the goddamned cowardly sons of bitches they are. Bring it on, please.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Post 2 is indeed a terrific find. ~~ Dan

It really is.

"It's simply a matter of quoting [Islamic] sources," said Emir Caner, an assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. "If we are wrong in our understanding of the Islamic scriptures, we would be happy to be corrected."

I.E., in debate language: "Our evidence is unimpeachable, you know it, and you just don't like that fact."

[abner]

Did anyone see the Frontline show about a month ago called 'Muslims'? It was very enlightening. It was filmed before 9/11 with updates until it aired. They were trying to show what 'real' Islam is. They had several examples of moderates.

At the end of the show, the moderates that were not living in the intolerant U.S. were in jail.

Islam may have been hijacked by extremeists, but they are the ones in power. To think anything else is sheer folly.

[jrewingjr]

I did not see that; I sure wish I had. I wonder if it is available somewhere on the web?

[Let's Roll]

The reason they don't condemn islamic terror is because they are raised to think their religion and culture is superior to all others - no multiculturalism for them - and that their goal should be world domination by islam. In their hearts they agree with the terrorists and support them in every way. The only reaction we will get out of them is whining about how mistreated they are or soon will be.

[Chu Gary]

"Muhammad reversed himself many times throughout the Q'uran and attributed the reversals to the "will of Allah". Proclaiming that anyone who dared disagree with Muhammad would be disagreeing with Allah."

Surely does sound like "The Wizard of Oz!" Any traction there???

[silverkor]

I don't post here very often but please let me say just this that is if you don't mind and I am sure that you will. YOU SIR! ARE AN IDIOT!!!

[WarSlut]

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." -- (Surah 48:29)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." -- (Surah 2:190-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." -- (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." -- (Surah 5:51)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." -- (Surah 9:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." -- (Surah 8:36-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." -- (Surah 9:37-)."

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." -- (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." -- (Surah 9:121-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." -- (Surah 2:190-)

""The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." -- (Surah 3:19)

KNOW ISLAM. READ THE KORAN.

[Savage Beast]

Nobody gave much of a hoot what the Muslims did until Muslims attacked the World Trade Center in September 2002.

Then the World began to listen to what Muslims were saying and to watch what Muslims were doing. Vines' remarks reflect the reaction that the people of the world have had to what they have observed.

Muslims are wasting their time on "damage control" unless they clean up their act. And even then, it might not be possible to correct negative opinions about Islam--if those negative opinions reflect the truth about Islam.

Vines' remarks would fall on deaf ears, if the people of the world had not observed for themselves just what Islam and Muslims (apparantly) stand for and had not recoiled in disgust.

Muslims who want to do damage control would be wise to ignore critics such as Vines and denounce in no uncertain terms those aspects of Islam that the world finds repugnant, e.g. terrorism, brutality, imperialism, intolerance, et al., as well as the shocking aspects of Islam that have come to light (and shocked the world) such as death to apostates, the stoning of people to death, chopping off hands and feet, execution of rape victims, advocacy of slavery, the use of the Koran as a governmental constitution, the banning of freedom of religion in Islamic theocracies, terrorism, murder/suicided bombings, al-Qaida, etc., et al.

Once Muslims have clarified a few details such as these--assuming that there is nothing else there to disgust the world--the words of anti-Islamic critics should be of no consequence.

Critical words are not the cause of anti-Islamic opinions. Unpleasant truths are.

By the way, has Davette Turk gotten herself together yet, or is she still in tears?

Nevermind. I can hear her blubbering all the way up here.

[AmericaUnited]

Islam is not above criticism, but to call Mohammed a demon possessed pedophile is a subjective comment, incendiary, and achieves no useful purpose.

A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself believed he was under demonic influence"

"No more witnesses your honor, I rest my case."

[muawiyah]

His growing kingdom was still confined to the Arabian peninsula. Their prosperity was relative. By ourstandards these people were very, very poor, malnourished, undereducated, and torn with disease.

Those facts in no way excuse what we would term heterosexual pedophilia, of course.

But, back to the point - this was the Dark Ages, and Mohammed was fortunate enough to live in one of the few places not depopulated by one of the world's greatest plagues (just then past), and all of these events took place in a small population that depended on trade with guys who chased sheep and goats.

As everyone in this particular thread knows, 100% of the information we have about Mohammad, or from Mohammad, comes from people who wrote his words, and the words of others, and their own thoughts on small pieces of wood or leather, or old crockery, with charcoal sticks, or pens dipped in inferior quality ink! Some of this material ended up in the Koran; some was relegated to the Hadiths, and yet other of it was just left for historians to find and sort out.

Those who presume Divine guidance behind this writing and sorting and categorizing would argue that all the material concerning the age of the last wife is absolutely true.

Those who question the legitimacy of half or more of all the ancient materials surrounding Mohammad, his life, and the lives and adventures of his companions can readily say that this particular piece of business is simply not proven.

In short, Moslems have to buy the story; non-Moslems can reject it or use it in debates with Moslems, which is alright if you are debating religion, but not alright if you are debating facts.

If we simply move back to the fundamentals - the questions about the legitimacy of those pieces of wood with Arabic writing on them - we can probably resolve 99% of the dilemmas within Islam, and also eliminate the sources of conflict between Islam and Christianity.

Unfortunately for the Moslems, they don't want to ask those questions. After all, in this day and age, to do so could get you killed (and I don't mean like Salman Rushdi because he believes all of this stuff is legitimate and true and faithful to the life and times of the Prophet. He's as bad as the guys who want to kill him.)

In the earliest centuries, Moslems still had it in them to question the legitimacy of text and to differentiate the true from the questionable. This sort of thing hasn't been done for a millenium, and that's why they now find Christians debating just how bad a pedophile their precious Mohammad really was, and using their own "Sunday School Lessons" (Hadiths) to do it.

[MeekOneGOP]

Muslim Community Speaks Out

Excerpt (from post #2):

ST. LOUIS (BP)--Two former Muslims responded June 12 to complaints from Islamic groups that a speaker's comments at the Southern Baptist Pastors' Conference in St. Louis were "bigoted" and "hateful."

National media have widely reported that Jerry Vines, pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., described Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" during a June 10 sermon and that Vines inferred that Islam teaches the destruction of non-Muslims.

Clarifying that Vines not only quoted from their recent book, "Unveiling Islam," Emir and Ergun Caner said Vines also quoted from the Hadith, a highly respected source for Islamic teaching among Muslim clerics and followers worldwide. The Hadith itself verifies that Muhammad married a 6-year-old girl and consummated the marriage when she was 9, the professor-brothers said.

"It's simply a matter of quoting [Islamic] sources," said Emir Caner, an assistant professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C. "If we are wrong in our understanding of the Islamic scriptures, we would be happy to be corrected."

The specific Hadith citation concerning Muhammad's pedophilia is in volume 7, book 6, number 64 and 65, said Ergun Caner, an assistant professor of theology and church history at Criswell College in Dallas.

Both Emir and Ergun Caner were Sunni Muslims who became Christians in 1982.

"The comments in question cannot be considered bigotry when they come from Islamic writings," Ergun Caner said.

A lengthy passage from the Hadith, volume 1, book 1, chapter 1, shows that Muhammad himself believed he was under demonic influence, but it notes that Muhammad's wife is the one who deemed his experience as "divine," Ergun Caner said.

Concerning terrorism and Islamic jihad, Emir Caner noted variant interpretations by Muslims themselves. Some see jihad as a "spiritual war," and others, "physical," he said.

"Some Muslims want to allegorize their own scriptures because they don't want to defend jihad," Emir Caner said. "But if you take the Koran at its word, or Muhammad at his word, then you'll find physical jihad."

The highest level of Muslim heaven -- which has 70 perpetual virgins on couches -- is reserved for Muslims who "shed their blood," said Ergun Caner said, referencing Hadith 135.

Islam's tilt toward violence, Emir Caner said, also is reflected in the Koran: "Slay the enemy where you find him, Surah 9.92," whereas Christians are commanded to love their enemies.

"A so-called Christian who bombs an abortion clinic or shoots an abortionist and says God told him to do it does that act against the Bible," Ergun Caner said. "But the Muslim who commits acts of violence in jihad does so with the approval of Muhammad.

Please let me know if you want ON or OFF my ping list!. . .don't be shy.

[LoneGOPinCT]

National media have widely reported that Jerry Vines, pastor of First Baptist Church, Jacksonville, Fla., described Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" during a June 10 sermon and that Vines inferred that Islam teaches the destruction of non-Muslims.

My only question regarding Pastor Vines' comment is whether or not his statements are correct. I admit to being in the dark when it comes to religion, but I haven't seen any refuting of his comments. Only criticism for saying it.

[Neever]

The time has come to unmask Islam. It is a religion of hate and violence. Spain couldn't become a world power until it expelled the muslims. Vines was telling the truth. Let us hope that the truth will make us free.

[moteineye]

He was even sicker than I thought.

[MeekOneGOP]

The two Christians that wrote the book are ex-Muslims and say his comments
are true per the Koran, etc. Islam is a true and peaceful religion, but has been
hijacked by the extremists that are full of hate, for "the Infidels", imho........

[Illbay]

Actually, I think the Muslim spokesman's reply was measured and effective. If you give these rednecks like Vines enough rope, they'll hang themselves, anyway.

[Illbay]

I don't recall any of my American heroes marrying anyone in their teens.

YOu need to read more. Try the life of "Ol' Hickory," Andrew Jackson for example.

He IS a "hero", but he had his ways...

(N.B.: Being played in film by Charlton Heston is a sure way to boost one's stock, though).

[Illbay]

Actually, ignorance and hatred are the enemy. That's true whether you're an illiterate Muslim fanatic or a slick-haired Southern Baptist redneck preacher.