Posted on 06/13/2002 3:17:42 PM PDT by vannrox
Matthew 5:43-45
43. "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.Matthew 13:27-30
27. "The owner's servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28. "`An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, `Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29. "`No,' he answered, `because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
30. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"Luke 6:26-28
26. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
27. "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28. bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.Luke 6:35
35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.Romans 12:17-21
17. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
18. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.Galatians 4:16
16. Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies.Surah 8:60
Fight, kill them (non muslims ) and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame.Surah 9:14
O Ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers, let them find harshness in you and know Allah is with those who fear him.Surah 9:123
From the sayings of Mohammed:
I Have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah.Al-Bukhari Vol 4:196
That attack was the religion taken to the final end.
This Islam religion is an enemy to America. Lethal enemy.
The FACTS are louder than the BS from the liberal mush heads.
I don't think anyone can second guess God. The salvation of every person is in His hands and all we can do is try to live the best life possible and follow God's words as we understand them to be.
You are wrong. Wahhabi sect does indeed represent fundamental islam because its tenets come straight from the Koran and the Hadith.
Anyone who has read a modicum of history knows that in the PAST, Christians and Jews fared far better under Islam than did Muslims under Christianity.
I have a degree in history, and I stating outright that Christians and Jews never fared well under Islam once it started spreading. Give me specific time period and locale where Christians ever fared well under Islam. Islam attacked Christendom first (look up the name "Charles Martel"). The Crusades came long after the muslims attacked Europe!
Islam, Christianity and Judaism have the same roots,
I fear it is you who need the history education. Islam came over 600 years after Christianity and the Koran gets many bible passages wrong! Allah is NOT the same God as Christians worship - many scholars have clearly shown that Allah was once a moon-god, a deity in a pantheon of 360 arabian gods. Clearly, the two concepts of who God is CONTRADICT each other and both cannot possibly be true.
I don't hate people - but I hate their satanic hateful religion. If their essential religious beliefs call for my desruction, then their religion must be destroyed first!
personally, I'd be happier if Muslism were kept out of here until this terrorism can be stopped. But I'm not a religious bigot. I think you are. All roads that lead to God are Good Roads, as long sa they are not built over the corpses of other Human Beings.
This statement shows your utter ignorance about islam. All roads lead to heaven eh? Let me put it to you simply and logically so you can understand. Islam claims Jesus Christ is not God, Christians claim He is. Islam claims that there is one God and He is not trinitarian, Christianity proclaims a Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Spirit). BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. Get it? Do you think the REAL God values truth? Do you think that it matters to God if we believe in the Real God or do you think He just overlooks it when we worship other false Gods...that as long as one is "sincere" in their belief, God approves? Hitler was sincere in his beliefs; Stalin was sincere in his atheism; the muslim terrorists who murder women and children are certainly sincere in their beliefs. All roads DO NOT lead to heaven pal. Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the Truth and the life and no man comes to the Father but by me." Either Jesus is a liar or islam is a liar. Which is it?
I am not asserting that Islam is a peaceful religion. I am asserting that Wahhabi Islam is responsible for the violence and aggression generated in the Islamic world today. There are Islamic sects like the Sufis which are non-violent. Like most religious books, you can extract whatever you want to justify anything from the Koran or the Bible for that matter. There ARE Muslims out there who are non-vilent and are intimadated by the Wahhabis, who control the Islamic holy sites and the oil wealth WE give them with our petrodollars.
"I have a degree in history, and I stating outright that Christians and Jews never fared well under Islam once it started spreading. Give me specific time period and locale where Christians ever fared well under Islam. Islam attacked Christendom first (look up the name "Charles Martel"). The Crusades came long after the muslims attacked Europe! "
One of the reasons that Islam was so successful in overrunning the middle east and Egypt and north Africa was because the native populations there found the Muslims did not interfere with or oppress them in the practise of the versions of Christianity they professed which differed from the orthodox version enforced by the Byzantine Emperor.
There was a thriving non-Catholic Christian community in Jerusalem and a thriving Jewsih quarter there under Islam before the arrival of the Crisaders. Once Jerusalem was captured, the eastern Christians found themselves either masacred with the Muslim population, or relegated to a status far worse than anything they experienced under the Muslims. The Jews were simply exterminated.
At times in the Balkans, the various Christian sects there were better off and kept peace with one another under Ottoman Islamic control.
Even today, there are Christian communities in Egypt and Iraq which can still practise their beliefs. As soon as the Christians took over Spain and Sicily, they exterminated, forcibly converted or drove out ALL Muslims from the territiory under their control.
Jewish scholars and Jews themselves were well treated and tolerated under the Ottomans and the medieval Islamic rulers of north Africa, Spain and the Middle East. In Christian Europe, Jews were continually subjected to brutal pograms, and even in some cases such as Spain and England, driven from the Country.
Fundamentalist Islam today is not the same creature as the Islam of the Middle Ages or even of the later Ottoman Empire.
"I fear it is you who need the history education. Islam came over 600 years after Christianity and the Koran gets many bible passages wrong! Allah is NOT the same God as Christians worship - many scholars have clearly shown that Allah was once a moon-god, a deity in a pantheon of 360 arabian gods. Clearly, the two concepts of who God is CONTRADICT each other and both cannot possibly be true."
True, Islam came 600 years after Christ. However, Islam is a montheistic religion. Muslims accept the Jewsih Prophets and Christ as prophets of God and honor them as such. They consider themselves followers of the same religious thread as that of Moses and Christ. They consideer the Koran their sacred text, but also revere the Bible as they feel their religion and the prophecies of Mohammad are based on Biblical foundations.
Neither I, nor any Muslims I know of consider Allah a pagan moon god. Every authority I have read, Christian and Muslim equates Allah with Yahweh and the "God" of the Christians.
You can't destroy a religious belief without destroying the people who practice it. Islam is not an enemy of America. Wahhabi Islam is. If the Wahhabists can convince Americans that ALL Muslims are their enemy (all four billion of them) then they have achieved their goal. I don't see four billion suicide bombers or four billion terrorists, do you? If all Muslims hated us as much you seem to think they do, we would be in a lot worse throuble than we are now.
"This statement shows your utter ignorance about islam. All roads lead to heaven eh?"
I said all roads that lead to God are good roads.
"Islam claims Jesus Christ is not God, Christians claim He is. Islam claims that there is one God and He is not trinitarian, Christianity proclaims a Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Spirit). BOTH CANNOT BE TRUE. Get it? Do you think the REAL God values truth?"
Islam does not believe Christ is the Son of God. They believe He is a major Prophet. Christians believe Christ is the Son of God. The "God" Christians believe Christ is the Son of (God the Father) is the same God that Jews worship as Yahweh and Muslims worship as Allah. Yes, Muslims do not believe in a triune God, neither do modern Jews. I think God values people who try to keep His word as they understand it, lead decent lives, and treat their fellow human beings as they would wish themselves to be treated. Only God can understand real Truth. Being finite creatures with a finite mind, we are incapapble of understanding God or the Real Truth.
"Hitler was sincere in his beliefs; Stalin was sincere in his atheism; the muslim terrorists who murder women and children are certainly sincere in their beliefs."
Hitler, Stalin and the Islamic terrorists who kill civilians are psychopathic madmen. Would compare ALL Muslims to these people, creatures torn by hate against their fellow men?
"All roads DO NOT lead to heaven pal."
Right. All roads don't lead to heaven and I didn't say that. I said that all roads that lead to God are good roads. There are many roads which can lead to God and I disagree with an interpretation of God, Christ and Scripture in which an all-knowing, all-loving and all-merciful God condemns anyone who is not a Christian to eternal damnation.
In your certitude of religious feelings and intolerance of the beliefs of others, sincere as you are obvously are, you sound philosophically very much like the very people you so abhor.
The Christian God and God of Judaism are one and the same, but jews also do not believe in the trinity, which means that they also are outside of the truth. However, the jews are different from muslims because God chose them as His people and thru them he revealed the Law and the Prophets, and thru them came His Son, Jesus Christ (himself a jew). However, those who reject Jesus Christ have no hope of salvation because there is then no provision for forgiveness of their sins. That being said, I believe God has a plan for the jewish people. In fact, Paul wrote in Romans that one day "all Isreal would be saved" meaning that one day the jews would come to know the Savior of the World. Do you know the Savior? The one who paid the penalty for your sins? Do you accept that you need a Savior because you have blown it?
YOUR statemnt is both absurd and religiously bigoted. Read some books about comparative theology. Allah, Yahweh and "God" are the same person whether or not you accept Christ as his son.
My statement is the truth. Sometimes the truth seems bigoted because truth by definition is very narrow. But I will state one more time that you are wrong. Allah is not hte same as Yahweh and anyone who says this is not familiar with the history of both religions. The Koran accounts of Abraham and other patriarchs directly conflict with the accoounts in the bible. One of the accounts has to be wrong. Obviously, the bible is right and the Koran is wrong as the bible preceded the Koran, it was written 1000-2000 years before the Koran. Muslims even deny that Jesus Christ died on the cross - in direct contradiction to the eyewitnesses who said he did. Which is more credible - the eyewitness or the one writing 700 years later?
You can repeat this mantra as many times as you want and it will be false every single time. Wahhabi islam IS fundamental islam. Period. Islam's founder was a violent warlike slave-holder who attacked caravans and forced people to convert. Sound familiar? Throughout history, Islam has attacked Christianity and other unsuspecting peoples - islam was spread by the sword, not by verbal persuasion! You need a lesson in history, not me. The attacks stopped for awhile when Christian Europe became more powerful than Islam in the 1600s, and after the death of the moribund Ottoman empire after WW I, islam became weak compared to the west and knew it would be clobbered if it attacked Christian nations. Strength is the only thing that will sway a fundamental muslim.
I think God values people who try to keep His word as they understand it, lead decent lives, and treat their fellow human beings as they would wish themselves to be treated.
It doesn't matter what you think, it only matters what Jesus Christ says. And He says that it does matter to God what people believe. Read the first commandment! Do not have 'ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE ME'. Jesus said that He alone is the way to heaven. So, the question you must resolve is: Is Jesus a liar or is He truly Lord?
Tolerance? I tolerate the beliefs of others - I allow them to believe what they want without attacking them as long as they don't attack me first (with force). Does this mean I have to AGREE with them? Are you saying that if I disagree with someone I am intolerant? You need to look up the defintion of tolerance in the dictionary. Tolerance requires disagreement! By your standards of tolerance, you are intolerant because you are not tolerant of MY beliefs! Am I allowed to have my own opinion - even if it does not match what is politically correct? You bet. This is America. Read the title of this website - FREE REPUBLIC. I may not be free to say these things in Iraq, but this is America pal. I spit on your idea of tolerance.
The bible also disagrees with you. Which is more credible? The bible or you? The bible clearly states that one must be born again by putting their faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved. There is no other way. If there was another way, God would not have sent Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the world, would he? The bible says that there "is none righteous, no not one" (romans 3:10) and that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (romans 3:23). God is Holy and perfect and good and sin cannot come into His presence. You may think you are a cdecent person, but you are mislead by your human perspective. From God's perspective, you are a fallen sinner and since God is also PERFECTLY JUST, He must punish you for your sins. Let me give you an analogy:
Suppose that you are a judge in the Superior Court for criminal trials, and suppose you had a son who stole a car and was caught red handed. Suppose he pleaded guilty, but was real sorrowful and remorseful (with tears). Would you still have to punish him? You bet you would - if you were a judge worth your salt! Now, imagine a perfectly just God - do you think He can just let you off? No way. Let's try another one:
There are a million ways to sin. In word (saying hateful things), in thought (lusting after another man's wife), or in deed (stealing or murdering). Also, one can sin by not doing something - not being kind enough, not praying every day, etc. So many ways to sin... We all sin many times a day, don't we? Now suppose I only sinned 3 times a day. That would add up to about 1000 sins a year and if I live 70 years, 70,000 sins in a lifetime. Do you think God will just accept my 70,000 sins? No, my friend, he won't. That is why He sent His son - to pay the penalty I could not pay - to die in my place! If you reject so great a salvation, do you really think you will be spared? Suppose you made a 3-egg omelette for some friends, and suppose one egg was rotten? Would they notice when they tasted it? You bet. By the same token, what makes you think you can serve up your sins to God and expect him to accept them?
You need to read my posts again. I didn't say all muslims. Most muslims (80%) are nominal muslims - they do not practice fundamental islam. And most are probably peaceful people. But there is no denying that fundamental islam is bent on destroying the U.S. and other infidels and therefore it must be destroyed first. Islam is not peace. It is violence and death and its history proves it. Next time, try backing up your assertions with hard facts.
The Jews and the Muslim's BOTH have a WORKS oriented religion: Be GOOD or else! If you think orthodox Jews have it rough in followinhg merely 613 laws, look into an official Muslim websbite and see ALL of the stuff THEY have to do! And in the end, the can only hope that when the end of their coffin opens, and they are poured out into the scales, their good deeds outweigh the bad!
Christians, on the other hand, rely on faith in GOD's promise. Faith alone is their watchword. Of course, good works and clean living should be a consequence of Faith, it is STILL the faith that does it.
True, there are MANY people who call them selves Christian that are relying on their 'good works' to 'help' in their Salvation, but this thread is not the place to be bringing THAT up.
The salvation of every person is in His hands and all we can do is try to live the best life possible and follow God's words as we understand them to be. AMEN!
But, it's in this UNDERSTANDING that is ALL the trouble! As I posted earlier, the words in each Book are just too dissimilar.....
I think we both agree on Fundamentalist Islam. Where we disagree is on Islam in general. See my newsmax post today.
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