Posted on 06/03/2002 9:41:43 PM PDT by Alabama_Wild_Man
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I disagree.
This does not mean that a Christian should never render judgement of any kind under any circumstances.
It means man shouldnt judge who is or is not going to heaven.
You Baptists have a pretty strict interpretation of scripture that borders on bigotry, I know this from my Baptist friends. As far as the BSA is concerned youre wrong. Worshiping one creator who has many names is IMHO what the intent of the program is all about, though that interpretation is rather conservative should RonF ping in here. To say that Islam doesnt meet this standard is wrong and youve made no case that it isnt and proved nothing through scripture.
First, let's make sure everyone understands just what's being done here. This is not the formation of the Islamic Boy Scouts in the U.S. I admit I'm filling the blanks some, but from my (experienced) understanding of the BSA, what is happening is that the Salahadeen Center is sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop in their town, and has installed Mr. Ezzeir as it's Scoutmaster. I personally cannot think of a better way to give a group of young men both theoretical and practical understanding of what it means to be an American. These Scouts will have to learn what Duty to God and Duty to Country mean in America, where those concepts are separate, not joined as they are in many Islamic countries. They will be taught that "A Scout is Reverent" means
"A scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." (my emphasis).
Those that advance past First Class will probably earn Citizenship in the Community, where they will have to get and demonstrate an understanding of how their local government works by studying it, attending a meeting of it, examining a copy of the budget and explaining it, etc. They will likely earn Citizenship in the Nation merit badge, among whose requirements are to read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution (including the amendments) and explain them. They will likely earn Citizenship in the World, where they will have to explain the difference between Constitutional and non-Constitutional governments, give examples of 5 different kinds of governments, and how citizenship in the United States differs in rights, privileges, and reponsibilities than citizenship in other countries.
Even though secular organizations sponsor about 1/2 of the BSA's traditional membership, the BSA believes that all Scouts must have spiritual development. Here's the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle:
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
Despite the use of the word "God", the BSA intreprets it, and the term non-sectarian, to include non-Judeo/Christian youth and adults. Note here that the list of religious awards that the BSA allows its members to wear on their uniforms includes numerous non-Judeo/Christian religions.
The purpose of the BSA (you can read more about this in detail here) is to provide community organizations (both religious and non-religious) a program that they can use to teach central American values, and the values of that community organization, to youth. It has always been intended that Scouting be used by local organizations to inculcate that local organization's values into youth, as well as the values expressed in Scouting. Of course, many people here seem to feel that the values of Islam and the values of the United States of America are not reconcilable. I will not get into that argument, as I don't know enough about Islam to judge this. All I do know is that the BSA accepts Islamic youth and adults into Scouting, whereas they are not shy about excluding people whose values they think contradict those of Scouting, such as homosexuals and atheists.
The great value of the Scouting method is that Scouts get practical instruction as well as theoretical: you can be told until you're blue in the face that you have to accept the responsibilities of citizenship, but wait until a Scout forgets to buy the food or "forgets" to clean the pots for his patrol on a campout. His fellow patrol members will make him understand the consequences of not meeting up to his responsibilities far better than any teacher can. Very few children could give you the dictionary definition of Trustworthy; but when a Scout is rock climbing, and another Scout holding a rope is the only thing keeping him from falling 50 feet onto broken rock if he slips, both Scouts learn what that word means in their guts. I have to feel that if young men are to find a way to join the concepts of Islam and American citizenship in their hearts, Scouting is a great way to do it.
Finally, understand that these Scouts will still wear the same uniform, pass all the requirements and earn the same merit badges as Scouts of any other religion. Also, it is not at all uncommon for Scout units to limit their membership to members of the sponsoring organization and their families, and to require the leaders to be active members in the organization. What they cannot do, however, is to require any unit members that are not members of the sponsor (should they accept any) to participate in any religious activities as a condition of membership.
Actually, I'm probably worse than a Baptist; more of a mouthful, to be sure. Try Dispensational, Premillennial, Pretribulational Fundamentalist Christian. That usually generates some very interesting comments, to say the least, especially when I add Creationist to the mix. That really gets them going. Perhaps I should have written this paragraph at the outset, thereby saving you a lot of grief over the issue. What to you think?
If you understood that, what it means, then you will also understand why I cannot accept your proposition that Allah, Shiva, Bramham, Buddah (and his little wood box), the Acended Masters, Druid tree spirits, etc., are all different names for the G-d of the Bible.
You seem to be very fond of Matthew 7:1, but have you read down a little further?
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it"(Matt. 7:13-14).
You believe that I am wrong in judging certian belief systems to be false. You cite the Bible as supporting your conclusion, and yet the Bible condemns those systems as false, as I have shown above.
If Jesus Christ is considered to be anyone or anything other than G-d in the flesh, whoever holds that position is wrong. "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Again, I do not judge them; they judge themselves. The Bible serves to clarify the issue.
That is yet another mark of a cult. The selective use of Bible Scripture, those which, when taken out of context, can be made to appear as supporting a view that the context does not.
As far as the BSA is concerned, if they want to embrace that kind of pluralism, they do so at their own spiritual peril. Those conflicting, contridictory belief systems will only undermine and weaken the foundation. Perhaps that foundation was never very strong. When I was a Boy Scout, in the early '60's, there was little discussion, if any, about religion. It seemed that, so long as one didn't have a desire to sacrifice a chicken and divine the future based on the positioning of it's entrails, they didn't care much. Oh there was prayer, the Lord's Prayer, but not much else. Perhaps all this contention with the Sodomites they are dealing with is the result of that lax, "devil may care" attitude I experienced.
The Boy Scouts is not a religion. Lord Baden-Powell got into trouble with the Church of England when they perceived some of his early writings as trying to use the Scouting Movement to supplant their religious teachings. His position, and that of the BSA, is that Scouting is a program that can be used by multiple religions to support those religions' teachings. While the founders of the BSA were (I'd think, don't know for sure) all Judeo/Christian, you can read in the earliest Boy Scout Handbooks (BSHB) that the authors regarded even the non-Christian worship practices of the Native Americans as part of American culture.
Due to the fact that the BSA allows mosques and Islamic cultural centers to sponsor units and allows Moslems to register as members, I infer that the BSA believes that there's no innate conflict between BSA's principles and Islam's, and that the BSA's program can be properly used by Moslems to support their efforts to teach their children values.
That is all I mean to establish by my previous discussion. I make no judgement as to whether this is right, nor whether the members of National Council, the Chief Scout Executive, and his minions are all going to go to hell for that. I leave that to the Judge of all. Last time I checked He claimed the sole right to do so, anyway.
So if the BSA's recent issues are due to divine displeasure with the BSA's lack of Christian orthodoxy, it's been a long time coming.
I had always been led to believe that the BSA was founded upon and embraced the Judeo-Christian ethic. Even when I was a Scout, that was the case. I see now that I was seriously misinformed all my ranting was flat out wrong; a defense where none was wanted, at least where the BSA is concerned. I knew this was not a thread concerning religion or cults and should have, again, left well enough alone. My apoligies to all.
In regards to your comment about Scouting being organized around the Judeo/Christian ethic; it's quite common in European countries for there to be 2 or more separate Scouting organizations, commonly one for Catholics and one for Protestants. You join what you are, and if you're not one or the other .... The country would then have an umbrella organization that is the country's member of WOSM (World Organization of Scouting Movements). We have avoided that fractionation in the BSA. Given the large number of religions with significant numbers of members in the United States, I think that this is a good thing.
Always glad to talk about Scouting....
Im not upset, I just disagree with Ron that in the Boy Scout Oath, Duty to God is truly duty to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. If it were duty to any god (deity), as Ron believes, then the BSA should change God to a lowercase g.
As far as Allah being a deity, thats your interpretation, proof is in the Arabic Bible which has closer roots to Aramaic than any Latin interpretation. The Moslems I know say they pray to the God of Abraham and Ill have to take their word, it appears you are citing scripture that has no bearing on that.
Why would G-d have decreed that the Ishmaelites were going to be trouble?
God was very favorable towards Ishmael, thats established all over Genesis. Theres so little known about his life that most everything written about him is conjecture. Im not here to defend Islam or the Quran nor would I defend Judaism for that matter. But by your interpretations of scripture, LDS is equally a cult as is Islam.
I have, however, found your perspective very interesting and look forward to further investigation. Thank you for the time you spent writing me, no apologies necessary.
Assuming your professor is Moslem, would he agree that he is praying to a deity and not the God of Abraham?
When I was in Boy Scouts, our Troop was based at a Catholic school and it was predominantly Catholic. My boy is now in a Troop based out of a Presbyterian Church and every Troop meeting is ended with a Christian prayer. The Mormons have designated Scouting as the Mormon Church's official youth activity and there are many LDS Troops around the country.
The Boy Scouts promote "Duty to God". How you define "God" is not dictated by the Boy Scouts of America.
The Boy Scouts can earn Religious Emblems (illustrated below) in their religion, be it Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopal, Mormon, Quaker, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Eastern Orthodox, etc.
If these Muslim BSA Troops are there to promote American values, more power to them. If they are promoting anti-Americanism, I would wonder why the founder would not form a "Junior Jihadist Club" rather than an All-American organization like the Boy Scouts.
Duty to God and Duty to Country (as in America). That is what the Boy Scouts teach. Our war is not with Muslims (as in Turkish Muslims). Our war is with Islamist fanatics. If the Boy Scouts teach love of America to Muslim boys in this country, it is carrying out it's mission.
"Hindu Scouts, Enviro Scouts, Boys that want to be Girls Scouts, Short Guy Scouts, Special Scouts, Anything but Christian Scouts, Everything-Hyphenated Scouts........" | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Scouting in the Islamic CommunityBackgroundScouting serves an important role in the Islamic community. Cub Scout packs, Boy Scout troops, and Venturing crews operated by Islamic organizations can be found in major cities throughout the United States. In 1982, the National Islamic Committee on Scouting (NICS) was formed by a group of concerned Muslims who represented many national Muslim organizations. Primarily, the NICS is responsible for formulating policies that govern the formation of Scouting in Islamic organizations and for guiding their cooperation with the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America. The NICS also establishes policies affecting the participation of Muslim men and women in Scouting through Islamic centers and mosques and advises the BSA National Council in all matters relating to Scouting among Muslims. Member Scout Associations of the World Organization of the Scout Movement and Their Membership (www.scout.org)See Key Below
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