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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: lentulusgracchus
Where did I say that people were property of the state?

It's implicit in your remarks. Either you work for the State and are its commandable resource, or it works for you, and it is your commandable resource.


You are straining at a gnat and swallowing an F-16.  You deny (or at least ignore) that "sovereign" and "supreme" are synonyms, yet accuse me of saying that the people are slaves.

Interesting.  I state that we are a republic, not a democracy and that the constitution is the supreme law of the land.  That all of our rights are codified by this sovereign law.  And you better hope it is supreme, otherwise states can exercise unrighteous dominion over you.

So who is the master, you or the State? If it isn't you, it's the State.

If the people are the masters, then we are a democracy.  The fact of the matter, is that that little 5,000 word scrap of paper splits rights and powers amongst the federal government, state governments and the people in a representative form of government known as a "republic."  There is no "master/slave" relationship here (at least in theory).  Rather there is a framework designed to ensure societal success with as little interference as possible.  If it were a "master/slave" model, we would have a welfare and nanny state giving to us crumbs while taking from us the fruit of our labors (we are getting there...)

Like they say, if you're sitting in a poker game and you can't tell by looking who the sucker is -- it's you.

Being reasonably good at math, I eschew games of chance played for money.
901 posted on 06/04/2002 12:49:09 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
The states have cannot legally assume powers denied them in Article I. The listed prohibitions are for states IN the union. Nowhere in Article I (or anywhere else) is there to be found a prohibition against secession. All you throw out is a prohibition against confederacies/treaties. What stops a single state from seceding?

Bonus questions: How many attempts does a state get for ratification? Assuming more than one, why would the subseqent attempts be more valid than the fisrt? What's the limit?

Furthermore, the very act of secession puts states laws above the constitution (which is a no-no) since the secession ordinance itself is a state law.

Sigh. The Constitution is sovereign ONLY where such has been delegated. The supremacy clause confers no power.

902 posted on 06/04/2002 12:56:23 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Non-Sequitur
That was almost two weeks before Lincoln was inaugurated, a month and a half before Sumter, and created an army 7 or 8 times the size of the remaining United States Army.

You never heard of "Be prepared"?

903 posted on 06/04/2002 12:59:17 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Sigh. The Constitution is sovereign ONLY where such has been delegated. The supremacy clause confers no power.

Where are you coming from?  Of course the supremacy clause confers power.  It states that the constitution (and treaties and laws made in pursuance of it) are the supreme law of the land.  That trumps any state laws period.

You are also ignoring the fact that there are, in fact, delegated powers that none of the federated states has ever been allowed to exercise (treaties, declaring war, etc.).

So, given the fact that the only way to reclaim sovereignty is for states to assert state laws trump constitutional laws, there is no mechanism for secession.

Go read the secession statements sometime.  Most of them claim that they are reclaiming their sovereignty.  Thus they admit that they had no sovereignty under the Union.
904 posted on 06/04/2002 1:04:04 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: lentulusgracchus
You can't be "supreme" or "sovereign" and have powers and rights denied to you at the same time.

Mutatis mutandis, the federal government cannot be "sovereign" or "supreme" in your usage, as long as there is a Bill of Rights.


Please don't misquote me.  I indicated that the constitution was supreme, *not* the federal government.

Nothing in the 9th or 10th says that the constitution is not supreme.  The delegated powers to the federal government cannot be infringed by the states (the feds cannot infringe on the states either).
905 posted on 06/04/2002 1:09:17 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
You are straining at a gnat and swallowing an F-16. You deny (or at least ignore) that "sovereign" and "supreme" are synonyms, yet accuse me of saying that the people are slaves.

You've managed to change the subject to my posting style. Fine.

I do deny that the phrase you recur to in Article VI, "Supreme Law of the Land", defines the Sovereign. As I tried to explain above, the Sovereign isn't a law, charter, or document -- it's an Entity, a living thing or person. In the Roman Republic, the Senate was the Sovereign, notwithstanding that the magistrates wielded awful powers. It was from the Senate that all power and legitimacy flowed.....except when they created a dictator, who was given the power of life and death, which the Romans took pains to advertise by giving the dictator an escort of twenty-four lictors bearing the rods and axes.

When I say that the States in the 1780's were the Sovereign, I mean that the States as the embodiment of the People of the States were the Sovereign, since all power and legitimacy flowed from them, and they were each supreme within their borders. Article II of the Articles of Confederation, Main tells us, specifically guaranteed the sovereignty of the States explicitly. But there is no parallel statement about sovereignty in the Constitution, and the Supremacy Clause isn't one. It speaks only to a standard of law, not to political Sovereignty in the community.

In postcolonial America, the State was its People, and the People of that state were the State, and its constitution and government were their creatures.

906 posted on 06/04/2002 1:09:18 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
If you deny that "sovereign" and "supreme" are synonyms then there is nothing more to say to you (I suggest that you look it up, however).

It doesn't change the fact that "supreme law of the land" and "sovereign law of the land" are synonomous.
907 posted on 06/04/2002 1:12:53 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Any laws made by a state (including secession ordinances) are subordinate to the constitution.

ZZZZZZttttt! Wrong! Hamilton from Federalist 32:

The necessity of a concurrent jurisdiction in certain cases results from the division of the sovereign power; and the rule that all authorities, of which the States are not explicitly divested in favor of the Union, remain with them in full vigor, is not a theoretical consequence of that division, but is clearly admitted by the whole tenor of the instrument which contains the articles of the proposed Constitution. We there find that, notwithstanding the affirmative grants of general authorities, there has been the most pointed care in those cases where it was deemed improper that the like authorities should reside in the States, to insert negative clauses prohibiting the exercise of them by the States. The tenth section of the first article consists altogether of such provisions. This circumstance is a clear indication of the sense of the convention, and furnishes a rule of interpretation out of the body of the act, which justifies the position I have advanced and refutes every hypothesis to the contrary.

Dual sovereignty. Mutiple delegations of sovereignty. And to prevent the federal government AND the state from sharing a select few powers, the limitations in Article I, Section 10.

Not complete and utter federal sovereignty. Secession could not be a "like" power, delegated to the federal government and the states - congress did not ratify the Constitution, nor can it rescind it. Au contraire, it remains a state power, as the states are the ratifying agents.

908 posted on 06/04/2002 1:28:55 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Non-Sequitur;wardaddy
And if Non-Sequitur gets #1000, I'm going to grab some tinfoil.
909 posted on 06/04/2002 1:30:58 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
Nothing in the 9th or 10th says that the constitution is not supreme.

Excuse me, but that isn't how it works. The Constitution lists powers delegated to the federal government by the People(s) who ratified it. It's incorrect, to turn the 9th and 10th inside out, by claiming Sovereignty (or anything else) because it isn't specifically denied.

And whether you are claiming that the federal government is Sovereign, or in your last construction, the Constitution, you can't get there by quoting the Constitution. There is no grant of Sovereignty in the Constitution, and plenty of evidence in the debate records that the ratifiers didn't want there to be one.

910 posted on 06/04/2002 1:36:08 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
You've already indicated that you don't believe that "supreme" and "sovereign" are synonomous.  Therefore it is bootless to continue.  BTW, "The Sovereign" as you use it would be translated into "The Supreme one."  IOW, there is nothing higher.
911 posted on 06/04/2002 1:40:42 PM PDT by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
Be prepared? Be prepared for what? The build up was done in spite of the fact that not a single hostile action had come from Washington. It was done at a time when the confederates were supposed to be 'negotiating' a peaceful settlement. It was done at a time when the United States Army had been reduced to about 12,000 effective soldiers by desertions and defections to the southern rebellion. The only possible reason for building up an army 8 times the size of your opponent is to prepare for a war that you plan on starting.
912 posted on 06/04/2002 2:26:29 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch
You have a habit of rail splitting and misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) things I've said. Where did I say that people were property of the state? I have said that the constitution is the supreme law of the land.

To illustrate further where your argument takes us, let's watch the Supreme Court at play, screwing with the poor old Antifederalists and their attempts to keep the feds off the People's backs:

Here is an "authoritative" discussion from one of the chief offenders,

The U.S. Senate's discussion of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution

Federal Regulations Affecting State Activities and Instrumentalities.--Since the mid-1970s, the Court has been closely divided over whether the Tenth Amendment or related constitutional doctrine constrains congressional authority to subject state activities and instrumentalities to generally applicable requirements enacted pursuant to the commerce power.\45\ Under Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Authority,\46\ the Court's most recent ruling directly on point, the Tenth Amendment imposes practically no judicially enforceable limit on generally applicable federal legislation, and states must look to the political process for redress.

In other words, the Supreme Court threw the States to the wolves.

And again,

The Court overruled National League of Cities in Garcia v. San Antonio Metropolitan Transit Auth.\54\ Justice Blackmun's opinion for the Court in Garcia concluded that the National League of Cities test for ``integral operations in areas of traditional governmental functions'' had proven ``both impractical and doctrinally barren,'' and that the Court in 1976 had ``tried to repair what did not need repair.''\55\ With only passing reference to the Tenth Amendment the Court nonetheless clearly reverted to the Madisonian view of the Amendment reflected in Unites States v. Darby.\56\ States retain a significant amount of sovereign authority [[Page 1516]] ``only to the extent that the Constitution has not divested them of their original powers and transferred those powers to the Federal Government.''\57\ The principal restraints on congressional exercise of the Commerce power are to be found not in the Tenth Amendment or in the Commerce Clause itself, but in the structure of the Federal Government and in the political processes.\58\ ``Freestanding conceptions of state sovereignty'' such as the National League of Cities test subvert the federal system by ``invit[ing] an unelected federal judiciary to make decisions about which state policies it favors and which ones it dislikes.''\59\ While continuing to recognize that ``Congress' authority under the Commerce Clause must reflect [the] position . . . that the States occupy a special and specific position in our constitutional system,'' the Court held that application of Fair Labor Standards Act minimum wage and overtime provisions to state employment does not require identification of these ``affirmative limits.''\60\ In sum, the Court in Garcia seems to have said that most but not necessarily all disputes over the effects on state sovereignty of federal commerce power legislation are to be considered political questions. What it would take for legislation to so threaten the ``special and specific position'' that states occupy in the constitutional system as to require judicial rather than political resolution was not delineated.

Yeah, right.

Later indications are that the Court may be looking for ways to back off from Garcia. One device is to apply a ``clear statement'' rule requiring unambiguous statement of congressional intent to displace state authority. After noting the serious constitutional issues that would be raised by interpreting the Age Discrimination in Employment Act to apply to appointed state judges, the Court in Gregory v. Ashcroft\64\ explained that, because Garcia ``constrained'' consideration of ``the limits that the state-federal balance places on Congress' powers,'' a plain statement rule was all the more necessary. ``[I]nasmuch as this Court in Garcia has left primarily to the political process the protection of the States against intrusive exercises of Congress' Commerce Clause powers, we must be absolutely certain that Congress intended such an exercise.''

Oh, so we're going to wear a condom now, and so that'll make it okay.

Under the Lincolnian view of States' rights preferred by you, we've declined to this, that Congress has merely to make a "clear statement" that it intends to invade the Reserved Powers under color of the Commerce Clause -- like knocking loudly at a woman's door before helping yourself.

913 posted on 06/04/2002 2:30:54 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: 4ConservativeJustices; wardaddy
Heh, heh, heh...a couple of bumps here...a few incindiary comments there...and before you know it I've got the 1K post.
914 posted on 06/04/2002 2:35:15 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
It's gonna make it....too many "scholars" out there....right Ditto?
915 posted on 06/04/2002 2:37:56 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Non-Sequitur
Heh, heh, heh...a couple of bumps here...a few incindiary comments there...and before you know it I've got the 1K post.

Just be yourself....

916 posted on 06/04/2002 2:39:27 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy;Non-Sequitur
Nobody here, nothing to see ... Please don't think this is "just" a bump ;o)
917 posted on 06/04/2002 2:42:08 PM PDT by 4CJ
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To: 4ConservativeJustices, all
Nope, it's petering out. I'd say 750 tops.

Hmmmm...wonder who said that?????

No matter...it's just a remark that has no bearing on what's just been said....lol

918 posted on 06/04/2002 2:44:58 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
I'm not bumping it either by the way....but thanks for the ...er...bump....I've forgotten who started this thread....maybe it was stainlessbanner???
919 posted on 06/04/2002 2:48:14 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Non-Sequitur
The only possible reason for building up an army 8 times the size of your opponent is to prepare for a war that you plan on starting.

They could have been preapring for an European invasion. They didn't have a navy to defend themselves.

;o)      (Shhhhh - up to 919)

920 posted on 06/04/2002 2:49:23 PM PDT by 4CJ
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