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Could the South Have Won?
NY Books ^ | June 2002 ed. | James M. McPherson

Posted on 05/23/2002 8:52:25 AM PDT by stainlessbanner


The New York Review of Books
June 13, 2002

Review

Could the South Have Won?

By James M. McPherson

Look Away! A History of the Confederate States of America

by William C. Davis

The South vs. the South: How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War

by William W. Freehling

Lee and His Army in Confederate History

by Gary W. Gallagher

The War Hits Home: The Civil War in Southeastern Virginia
by Brian Steel Wills

The field of Civil War history has produced more interpretative disputes than most historical events. Next to debates about the causes of the war, arguments about why the North won, or why the Confederacy lost (the difference in phraseology is significant), have generated some of the most heated but also most enlightening recent scholarship. The titles of four books reveal just some of the central themes of this argument: Why the North Won the Civil War (1960); How the North Won (1983); Why the South Lost the Civil War (1986); Why the Confederacy Lost (1992).

Answers to these why and how questions fall into two general categories: external and internal. Exter-nal interpretations usually phrase the question as Why did the North win? They focus on a comparison of Northern and Southern population, resources, economic capacity, leadership, or strategy, and conclude that Northern superiority in one or more of these explains Union victory. Internal explanations tend to ask, Why did the South lose? They focus mainly or entirely on the Confederacy and argue that internal divisions, dissensions, or inadequacies account for Confederate defeat.

The most durable interpretation is an external one. It was offered by General Robert E. Lee himself in a farewell address to his army after its surrender at Appomattox: "The Army of Northern Virginia has been compelled to yield to overwhelming numbers and resources."[1] This explanation enabled Southern whites to preserve their pride, to reconcile defeat with their sense of honor, even to maintain faith in the nobility of their cause while admitting that it had been lost. The Confederacy, in other words, was compelled to surrender not because its soldiers fought badly, or lacked courage, or suffered from poor leadership, or because its cause was wrong, but simply because the enemy had more men and guns. The South did not lose; Confederates wore themselves out whipping the Yankees and collapsed from glorious exhaustion. This interpretation became the mainstay of what has been called the Myth of the Lost Cause, which has sustained Southern pride in their Confederate forebears to this day. As one Virginian expressed it:

They never whipped us, Sir, unless they were four to one. If we had had anything like a fair chance, or less disparity of numbers, we should have won our cause and established our independence.[2]

In one form or another, this explanation has won support from scholars of Northern as well as Southern birth. In 1960 the historian Richard Current provided a succinct version of it. After reviewing the statistics of the North's "overwhelming numbers and resources" two and a half times the South's population, three times its railroad capacity, nine times its industrial production, and so on Current concluded that "surely, in view of the disparity of resources, it would have taken a miracle...to enable the South to win. As usual, God was on the side of the heaviest battalions."[3]

In 1990 Shelby Foote expressed this thesis in his inimitable fashion. Noting that many aspects of life in the North went on much as usual during the Civil War, Foote told Ken Burns on camera in the PBS documentary The Civil War that "the North fought that war with one hand behind its back." If necessary "the North simply would have brought that other arm out from behind its back. I don't think the South ever had a chance to win that war."[4]


At first glance, Current's and Foote's statements seem plausible. But upon reflection, a good many historians have questioned their explicit assertions that overwhelming numbers and resources made Northern victory inevitable. If that is true, the Confederate leaders who took their people to war in 1861 were guilty of criminal folly or colossal arrogance. They had read the census returns. They knew as much about the North's superiority in men, resources, and economic capacity as any modern historian. Yet they went to war confident of victory. Southern leaders were students of history. They could cite many examples of small nations that won or defended their independence against much more powerful enemies: Switzerland against the Hapsburg Empire; the Netherlands against Spain; Greece against the Ottomans. Their own ancestors had won independence from mighty Britain in 1783. The relative resources of the Confederacy vis-à-vis the Union in 1861 were greater than those of these other successful rebels.

The Confederacy waged a strategically defensive war to protect from conquest territory it already controlled and to preserve its armies from annihilation. To "win" that kind of war, the Confederacy did not need to invade and conquer the North or destroy its army and infrastructure; it needed only to hold out long enough to compel the North to the conclusion that the price of conquering the South and annihilating its armies was too great, as Britain had concluded with respect to the United States in 1781 or, for that matter, as the United States concluded with respect to Vietnam in 1972. Until 1865, cold-eyed military experts in Europe were almost unanimous in their conviction that Union armies could never conquer and subdue the 750,000 square miles of the Confederacy, as large as all of Western Europe. "No war of independence ever terminated unsuccessfully except where the disparity of force was far greater than it is in this case," pronounced the military analyst of the London Times in 1862. "Just as England during the revolution had to give up conquering the colonies so the North will have to give up conquering the South."[5]

Even after losing the war, many ex-Confederates stuck to this belief. General Joseph E. Johnston, one of the highest-ranking Confederate officers, insisted in 1874 that the Southern people had not been "guilty of the high crime of undertaking a war without the means of waging it successfully."[6] A decade later General Pierre G.T. Beauregard, who ranked just below Johnston, made the same point: "No people ever warred for independence with more relative advantages than the Confederates."[7]


If so, why did they lose the war? In thinly veiled terms, Johnston and Beauregard blamed the inept leadership of Jefferson Davis. That harried gentleman responded in kind; as far as he was concerned, the erratic and inadequate generalship of Beauregard and especially Johnston was responsible for Confederate defeat. In the eyes of many contemporaries and historians there was plenty of blame to go around. William C. Davis's Look Away! is the most recent "internal" study of the Confederacy that, by implication at least, attributes Confederate defeat to poor leadership at several levels, both military and civilian, as well as factionalism, dissension, and bickering between men with outsize egos and thin skins. In this version of Confederate history, only Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson remain unstained.

For any believer in the Myth of the Lost Cause, any admirer of heroic Confederate resistance to overwhelming odds, the story told by Davis (no relation to the Confederate president) makes depressing reading. It is a story of conflicts not on the battlefields of Manassas or Shiloh or Gettysburg or Chickamauga or the Wilderness they are here, but offstage, as it were but conflicts between state governors and the Confederate government in Richmond, between quarreling Cabinet officers, between Jefferson Davis and prominent generals or senators or newspaper editors and even his vice-president, Alexander Stephens. Davis chronicles different examples of internal breakdown under the stresses not only of enemy invasion but also of slave defections to the Yankees, of Unionist disloyalty in the upcountry, particularly in such states as Tennessee, of galloping inflation and the inability of an unbalanced agricultural society under siege to control it, of shortages and hunger and a growing bitterness and alienation among large elements of the population.

These problems seemed more than sufficient to ensure Confederate failure, but they were greatly exacerbated by the jealousies and rivalries of Confederate politicians, which remain Davis's principal focus. He does not explicitly address the question of why the Confederacy lost, but his implicit answer lies in the assertion that "the fundamental flaw in too many of the big men of the Confederacy... [was] 'big-man-me-ism.'"

There are, however, two problems with this interpretation. In two senses it is too "internal." First, by concentrating only on the Confederacy it tends to leave the reader with the impression that only the Confederacy suffered from these corrosive rivalries, jealousies, and dissensions. But a history of the North during the Civil War would reveal similar problems, mitigated only by Lincoln's skill in holding together a diverse coalition of Republicans and War Democrats, Yankees and border states, abolitionists and slaveholders which perhaps suggests that Lincoln was the principal reason for Union victory. In any event, Look Away! is also too "internal" because the author is too deeply dependent on his sources. It is the nature of newspaper editorials, private correspondence, congressional debates, partisan speeches, and the like to emphasize conflict, criticism, argument, complaint. It is the squeaky wheel that squeaks. The historian needs to step back and gain some perspective on these sources, to recognize that the well-greased wheel that turns smoothly also turns quietly, leaving less evidence of its existence available to the historian.

Look Away! falls within one tradition of internal explanations for Confederate defeat. More prevalent, especially in recent years, have been studies that emphasize divisions and conflicts of race, class, and even gender in the South. Two fifths of the Confederate population were slaves, and two thirds of the whites did not belong to slaveholding families. What stake did they have in an independent Confederate nation whose original raison d'être was the protection of slavery? Not much stake at all, according to many historians, especially for the slaves and, as the war took an increasing toll on non-slaveholding white families, very little stake for them either. Even among slaveholding families, the women who willingly subscribed to an ethic of sacrifice in the war's early years became disillusioned as the lengthening war robbed them of husbands, sons, lovers, and brothers. Many white women turned against the war and spread this disaffection among their menfolk in the army; in the end, according to Drew Gilpin Faust, "it may well have been because of its women that the South lost the Civil War."[8]


If all this is true if the slaves and some nonslaveholding whites opposed the Confederate war effort from the outset and others including women of slaveholding families eventually turned against it, one need look no further to explain Confederate defeat. In The South vs. the South, however, William W. Freehling does not go this far. He says almost nothing about women as a separate category, and he acknowledges that many nonslaveholding whites had a racial, cultural, and even economic stake in the preservation of slavery and remained loyal Confederates to the end. But he maintains that, properly defined, half of all Southerners opposed the Confederacy and that this fact provides a sufficient explanation for Confederate failure.

Freehling defines the South as all fifteen slave states and Southerners as all people slave as well as free who lived in those states. This distinction between "the South" and the eleven slave states that formed the Confederacy is important but too often disregarded by those who casually conflate the South and the Confederacy. Admittedly, some 90,000 white men from the four Union slave states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and Delaware) fought for the Confederacy, but this number was offset by a similar number of whites from Confederate states (chiefly Tennessee and the part of Virginia that became West Virginia) who fought for the Union.

But Freehling's central thesis that "white Confederates were only half the Southerners" raises problems. This arithmetic works only if virtually all black Southerners are counted against the Confederacy. At times Freehling seems to argue that they should be so counted. At other times he is more cautious, maintaining that "the vast majority" of Southern blacks "either opposed the rebel cause or cared not whether it lived or died." Freehling does not make clear how important he considers that qualifying "or cared not." In any event, let us assume that all three million slaves who remained in the Confederacy (as well as the one million in the border states and in conquered Confederate regions) sympathized with the Union cause that would bring them freedom. Nevertheless, their unwilling labor as slaves was crucial to the Confederate economy and war effort, just as their unwilling labor and that of their forebears had been crucial to building the antebellum Southern economy. These Confederate slaves worked less efficiently than before the war because so many masters and overseers were absent at the front. Unwilling or not, however, they must be counted on the Confederate side of the equation, which significantly alters Freehling's 50/50 split of pro- and anti-Confederates in the South to something like 75/25.

Freehling draws on previous scholarship to offer a succinct narrative of the political and military course of the war, organized around Lincoln's slow but inexorable steps toward emancipation, "hard war," and the eventual mobilization of 300,000 black laborers and soldiers to work and fight for the Union. This narrative is marred by several errors, including the repeated confusion of General Charles F. Smith with General William F. "Baldy" Smith, the conflation of combat casualties with combat mortality, the mislabeling of a photograph of Confederate trenches at Fredericksburg as Petersburg, and the acceptance at face value of Alexander Stephens's absurd claim, made five years after Lincoln's death, that the Union president had urged him in 1865 to persuade Southern states to ratify the Thirteenth Amendment "prospectively," thereby delaying the abolition of slavery five years. Nevertheless, Freehling has made a strong case for the vital contribution of the two million whites and one million blacks in the South who definitely did support the Union cause. Without them, "the North" could not have prevailed, as Lincoln readily acknowledged.


Freehling does not take a clear stand on the question of whether Union victory was inevitable. At times he seems to imply that it was, because the half of all Southerners whom he claims supported the Union (actively or passively) doomed the Confederacy. But at other times he suggests that this support was contingent on the outcome of military campaigns and political decisions. No such ambiguity characterizes the essays in Gary Gallagher's Lee and His Army in Confederate History. In this book and in his earlier The Confederate War, Gallagher has argued forcefully and convincingly that Confederate nationalism bound most Southern whites together in determined support for the Confederate cause, that the brilliant though costly victories of Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia reinforced this determination, and that morale even in the face of defeat and the destruction of resources in 1864 1865 remained high until almost the end.

Gallagher does not slight the problems of slave defections to the Yankees, class tensions among whites, personal rivalries and jealousies among Confederate leaders, and other internal divisions that have occupied historians who see these problems as preordaining defeat. But he emphasizes the degree of white unity and strength of purpose despite these faultlines. Plenty of evidence exists to support this emphasis. A Union officer who was captured at the Battle of Atlanta on July 22, 1864, and spent the rest of the war in Southern prisons wrote in his diary on October 4 that from what he had seen in the South "the End of the War...is some time hence as the Idea of the Rebs giving up until they are completely subdued is all Moonshine they submit to privatations that would not be believed unless seen."[9]

"Until they are completely subdued." That point came in April 1865, when the large and well-equipped Union armies finally brought the starving, barefoot, and decimated ranks of Confederates to bay. Gallagher revives the overwhelming numbers and resources explanation for Confederate defeat, shorn of its false aura of inevitability. Numbers and resources do not prevail in war without the will and skill to use them. The Northern will wavered several times, most notably in response to Lee's victories in the summer of 1862 and winter spring of 1863 and the success of Lee's resistance to Grant's offensives in the spring and summer of 1864. Yet Union leaders and armies were learning the skills needed to win, and each time the Confederacy seemed on the edge of triumph, Northern victories blunted the Southern momentum: at Sharpsburg, Maryland, and Perryville, Kentucky, in the fall of 1862; at Gettysburg and Vicksburg in July 1863; and at Atlanta and in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in September 1864. Better than any other historian of the Confederacy, Gallagher understands the importance of these contingent turning points that eventually made it possible for superior numbers and resources to prevail. He understands as well that the Confederate story cannot be written except in counterpoint with the Union story, and that because of the multiple contingencies in these stories, Northern victory was anything but inevitable.


Much of the best scholarship on the Civil War during the past decade has concentrated on the local or regional impact of the war. A fine example is Brian Steel Wills's The War Hits Home, a fascinating account of the home front and battle front in southeastern Virginia, especially the town of Suffolk and its hinterland just inland from Norfolk. No great battles took place here, but there was plenty of skirmishing and raids by combatants on both sides. Confederates controlled this region until May 1862, when they were compelled to pull back their defenses to Richmond. Union forces occupied Suffolk for the next year, staving off a halfhearted Confederate effort to recapture it in the spring of 1863. The Yankees subsequently fell back to a more defensible line nearer Norfolk, leaving the Suffolk region a sort of no man's land subject to raids and plundering by the cavalry of both armies.

Through it all most white inhabitants remained committed Confederates, while many of the slaves who were not removed by their owners to safer territory absconded to the Yankees, adding their weight to the Union side of the scales in the balance of power discussed by Freehling. White men from this region fought in several of Lee's regiments, suffering casualties that left many a household bereft of sons, husbands, fathers. Yet their Confederate loyalties scarcely wavered.

Northern occupation forces at first tried a policy of conciliation, hoping to win the Southern whites back to the Union. When this failed, they moved toward a harsher policy here as they did elsewhere, confiscating the property and liberating the slaves of people they now perceived as enemies to be crushed rather than deluded victims of secession conspirators to be converted.

Wills does not make a big point of it, but his findings stand "in sharp rebuttal" to the arguments of historians who portray a weak or divided white commitment to the Confederate cause as the reason for defeat. "These people sought to secure victory until there was no victory left to win." In the end the North did have greater numbers and resources, wielded with a skill and determination that by 1864 1865 matched the Confederacy's skills and determination; and these explain why the North won the Civil War.

Notes

[1] The Wartime Papers of R.E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin (Little, Brown, 1961), p. 934.

[2] Quoted in Why the North Won the Civil War, edited by David Donald (Louisiana State University Press, 1960), p. ix.

[3] Richard N. Current, "God and the Strongest Battalions," in Why the North Won the Civil War, p. 22.

[4] "Men at War: An Interview with Shelby Foote," in Geoffrey C. Ward with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, The Civil War (Knopf, 1990), p. 272.

[5] London Times, August 29, 1862.

[6] Joseph E. Johnston, Narrative of Military Operations (Appleton, 1874), p. 421.

[7] Pierre G.T. Beauregard, "The First Battle of Bull Run," in Battles and Leaders of the Civil War, 4 volumes, edited by Robert U. Johnson and Clarence C. Buel (Century, 1887), Vol. 1, p. 222.

[8] Drew Gilpin Faust, "Altars of Sacrifice: Confederate Women and the Narratives of War," The Journal of American History, Vol. 76, No. 4 (March 1990), p. 1228.

[9] "The Civil War Diary of Colonel John Henry Smith," edited by David M. Smith, Iowa Journal of History, Vol. 47 (April 1949), p. 164.



TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: books; dixie; dixielist; jamesmcpherson; mcpherson; research; south
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To: lentulusgracchus
"The slaveholders were relatively few, tended to be men of English stock (remember that the next time you feel inclined to whip up on the Scots-Irish Southerners)...

I would be inclined to think that true throughout the south, not just in Texas. The aristrocrats and largest slaveholders tended to be the "old" money class who held the reigns of power. BTW, I only 'whip up" on the Slaveocrats like Davis who started that awful war. The rest of the southerners were victims of their corruption, greed and arrogance before, during and after the war and it mystifies me that anyone could admire men like that.

581 posted on 05/28/2002 1:41:52 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: wardaddy
"FR is creeping today...have you noticed?"

Haven't spent much time here today, actually.

582 posted on 05/28/2002 1:44:35 PM PDT by Aurelius
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To: wardaddy
It's odd that for nearly 120 years after Reconstruction that historians for the most part were fairly even handed and willing to attribute faults or accolades where they fell to either party.

Yeah, I noticed that, too, and I guess that's why I'm here. And it's emanating from the offices of the NAACP and The New York Times, two suspect outfits for historiographical equability if I ever saw one. Now, you are right, an ideological war is being waged, and I wonder if some of the Neoconfederates here aren't right, that it's about propagating Declarationist/National Greatness/corporate-state messages throughout the culture in order to bury, finally and for all time, the message of Jefferson, Jackson, and the real 19th-century liberals who were the ideational ancestors of Barry Goldwater and Western and Southern conservatives, who mostly hark back to Manifest Destiny and the Jacksonian enthronement of the People. Which Money and Privilege can't have hanging around.

583 posted on 05/28/2002 3:16:07 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
You're telling us that the future of liberty somehow lies in defending, rationalizing or excusing the motives of a small group very wealthy men who attempted to create a slave empire?

Interesting theory.

584 posted on 05/28/2002 3:26:05 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: Ditto
I would be inclined to think that true throughout the south, not just in Texas.

Well, yes, I was just sticking to my source, but yes, it would be fair to generalize more widely, and in fairness Fehrenbach has a longish chapter in which he describes the settlers of the Old Southwest and their long journey from Presbyterian Scots-Irish to largely Baptist Southerners and Westerners.

There was always class and influence divisiveness in the South, as in the rest of American society. It's just that the Southerners bridled more, being equalitarian, but were able to do less, because they were so very poor. That's why they formed organizations like the Klan, to try to offset the political power of the Reconstruction regime. But they were coopted and used from the git by the gentry -- well, it was founded by Forrest, and Wheeler -- so the Klan never could have become what its followers hoped, for better or worse. Particularly since it was a subterranean, underworld society suffused with vindictive violence, and always therefore subject (as the FBI discovered when vivisecting Satanist cults among West Coast kids) to leadership's being compromised and led from below by the most lurid and violent appetites. IMHO.

585 posted on 05/28/2002 3:26:51 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Ditto
You're telling us that the future of liberty somehow lies in defending, rationalizing or excusing the motives of a small group very wealthy men who attempted to create a slave empire?

Ah, tourjours, mon Ditto, toujours le spin! Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, the followers of Calhoun were the intellectual heirs of James Madison, if not Jefferson himself; and the common people who populated the Confederate Army were Jacksonian Democrats. And their defeat was a defeat for the vision of the Founders, that turned their nation of free men into a cage full of clock-punchers. That, dear Ditto, is what I'm saying.

On a purely informal and discussive basis, of course.

586 posted on 05/28/2002 3:34:43 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Reply in extenso later. I'm sure your quotes are okay, but your construction is wretched. Incontestable that he overused his Army out of his natural aggression: I've already quoted Edward Bonekemper on this (How Robert E. Lee Lost the Civil War, Sergeant Kirkland's Press, Fredericksburg, Va., 1998, 248pp.) in other threads in FR and I've referred to him here, about the mythopoetic activities of some Confederate generals.

More later. Duty calls.

587 posted on 05/28/2002 3:44:27 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: lentulusgracchus
Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, the followers of Calhoun were the intellectual heirs of James Madison...

James Madison sure didn't think so. Did you every read what he had to say about Calhoun's Nullification and Secession theories?

I find it difficult to see any relationship between Calhoon and Madison. Or Calhoon and Andy Jackson for that matter. Madison said that Calhoon's constitutional 'interpertations' were nonsense, and nothing but a formula for war or anarchy while Jackson was more than willing to hang Calhoon and his tribe for treason if he had to. He said as much in his message to the people of South Carolina.

588 posted on 05/28/2002 3:46:34 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: wardaddy; lentulusgracchus; muleboy; Whiskey Papa
History is NEVER that simple....except to simpletons.

Could it be this simple?

The greed of the Eastern Whig/Republican Millocracy, to take private the national agenda the way their antecedents had ramrodded and bullsteered the ratification of the Constitution of 1787. The greed of the industrialists and their bankers in the East Coast money centers, to strip the continent of its wealth and work its immigrants into the dirt for 15 cents a day.

That couldn't happen, with the old, agrarian, Jacksonian America standing in the day. So.....pick an issue, what issue will do, boys, to split the West off from the South? Oh, I know! Slavery! Let's throw our weight behind that Lincoln fellow, he's spoiling for a fight with the Sothrons. He'll get us where we need to go!

How 'bout this simple?

Not to mention the greed of the mercantilists who used force to "free" the slaves (as long as they don't come up here) and to establish a "more perfect union, of the corporations, by the corporations, and FOR the corporations", which, by the way, we still have today.

As a great Southerner once said; "Simple is as simple does."

These aren't improvements over what most of us were taught in school, they're a great leap backward from the beginnings of complexity to a dead-end oversimplification, from first encountering actual sources to relying on retrospective imaginings. In 1860 more Americans were probably more concerned about competition from slave masters and slave labor than about mill owners or capitalists, and they believed that they would have had great reason for concern had the Confederacy won. It does seem strange to take the socialist tack against free labor to defend the Confederacy, ... but I forgot, slavery doesn't enter into the picture at all.

589 posted on 05/28/2002 3:54:03 PM PDT by x
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To: Non-Sequitur
.....then what do you have to say about generals like John Pemberton and Josiah Gorgas? Men who were born in the North but fought for the confederacy?

Depends on which State they were citizens of when the call came. I don't begrudge a (former) Virginian living in Colorado for serving in the Union army. Longstreet instructed a sergeant and some enlisted men who were still on federal service in New Mexico to stay at their posts, when they asked him about traveling home to Virginia. He reasoned that he'd resigned his commission with a forward effective date (I suppose that's what Wlat is tootling about, but I'd have to see the documents and would be very unhappy to find out he was fooling with us), and so he himself, Longstreet, was released. But the Virginians in the rank were still under oath.

It would be harder to say about those selfsame Virginians if their State had indeed left the Union. I'd have to re-read Longstreet's memoir on that point. Could the Union bind a man to service against his own People under an oath? We never required it of the Nisei, but we sure did of the German-Americans in WW1 -- under pain of this, that, and the other. And that's how Longstreet seemed to see it.

590 posted on 05/28/2002 3:54:34 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: x
You can't address a war that involved four or five million men, and hundreds of thousands of key players and stakeholders off the battlefield, in a 200-word post without simplifying.

I'll notify Jim Rob of your insistence that he shut Freeper down at once.

591 posted on 05/28/2002 3:57:19 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Ditto
Did you every read what he had to say about Calhoun's Nullification and Secession theories?

I saw some quotes in which Madison addressed both subjects, but I don't know whether they're the quotes you had in mind. He condemned Nullification as violative of the Supremacy Clause, and his reasoning is lucid......Jefferson Davis, in his inaugural speech as president of the provisional Confederate government, reprised this point and showed the deficiencies of the Nullification doctrine clearly.

Whether Madison liked Calhoun a lot or agreed with him on everything, Calhoun was his heir, as Butler was not -- Butler was the bugbear that Madison had foreseen, and was therefore (I surmise) some sort of anti-Madison.

592 posted on 05/28/2002 4:02:01 PM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: muleboy
History clearly shows the fundamental flaws of the victors. What a shame we'll never know how the Confederate system would have developed.

Since organizing Southerners is akin to herding cats (a good thing), getting a system together wouldn't have been easy. But all the right ingredients were there, honor, loyalty and statesmen.

593 posted on 05/28/2002 4:06:17 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: lentulusgracchus
Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, the followers of Calhoun were the intellectual heirs of James Madison, if not Jefferson himself; and the common people who populated the Confederate Army were Jacksonian Democrats. And their defeat was a defeat for the vision of the Founders, that turned their nation of free men into a cage full of clock-punchers. That, dear Ditto, is what I'm saying.

So well said! My ancestors were agrarians and among "the common people who populated the Confederate Army." No doubt they are spinning in their graves at what has happened to their Democrat (read Dixiecrat) Party.

As agrarianism continues to die a slow and painful death -- are we, as a society, better off? I think not. As Gerald O'Hara told his daughter, to paraphrase, nothing is as important as land. The end of the War for Southern Independence was the beginning of the end of Individual land and property rights -- and with it the erosion of independence and self-determination.

594 posted on 05/28/2002 4:27:31 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"All the South has ever desired is that the union, as formed by our founding fathers, should be preserved." Jan 5. 1866 (6)

This is so true, Walt. And it was the principle reason why the South wanted it's independence -- to preserve the union as prescribed by its founders.

595 posted on 05/28/2002 4:31:20 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: lentulusgracchus
A very worthwhile thread!

A regular undergrad seminar. ;^)

596 posted on 05/28/2002 4:35:53 PM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: varina davis
Many of the ingredients were there, with a few crippling exceptions. And thus another promising experiment in free-market based, representative government was snuffed out in it's crib.

What a shame. The more 'experiments' there are, the more competition of ideas, the more combinations in balance of power, the more chances for one to hit upon an idea that works well, that can be copied by the others.

But, as always, hubris-filled usurpers cannot stand to share power and are masters of wrapping their greedy manifestations in cloaks of "morality", "security", and "peace".

597 posted on 05/28/2002 4:41:20 PM PDT by muleboy
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To: lentulusgracchus
James Madison to Daniel Webster
15 Mar. 1833

I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession." But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy. Its double aspect, nevertheless, with the countenance recd from certain quarters, is giving it a popular currency here which may influence the approaching elections both for Congress & for the State Legislature. It has gained some advantage also, by mixing itself with the question whether the Constitution of the U.S. was formed by the people or by the States, now under a theoretic discussion by animated partizans. [Calhoon]

It is fortunate when disputed theories, can be decided by undisputed facts. And here the undisputed fact is, that the Constitution was made by the people, but as imbodied into the several states, who were parties to it and therefore made by the States in their highest authoritative capacity. They might, by the same authority & by the same process have converted the Confederacy into a mere league or treaty; or continued it with enlarged or abridged powers; or have imbodied the people of their respective States into one people, nation or sovereignty; or as they did by a mixed form make them one people, nation, or sovereignty, for certain purposes, and not so for others.

The Constitution of the U.S. being established by a Competent authority, by that of the sovereign people of the several States who were the parties to it, it remains only to inquire what the Constitution is; and here it speaks for itself. It organizes a Government into the usual Legislative Executive & Judiciary Departments; invests it with specified powers, leaving others to the parties to the Constitution; it makes the Government like other Governments to operate directly on the people; places at its Command the needful Physical means of executing its powers; and finally proclaims its supremacy, and that of the laws made in pursuance of it, over the Constitutions & laws of the States; the powers of the Government being exercised, as in other elective & responsible Governments, under the controul of its Constituents, the people & legislatures of the States, and subject to the Revolutionary Rights of the people in extreme cases.

It might have been added, that whilst the Constitution, therefore, is admitted to be in force, its operation, in every respect must be precisely the same, whether its authority be derived from that of the people, in the one or the other of the modes, in question; the authority being equally Competent in both; and that, without an annulment of the Constitution itself its supremacy must be submitted to.

The only distinctive effect, between the two modes of forming a Constitution by the authority of the people, is that if formed by them as imbodied into separate communities, as in the case of the Constitution of the U.S. a dissolution of the Constitutional Compact would replace them in the condition of separate communities, that being the Condition in which they entered into the compact; whereas if formed by the people as one community, acting as such by a numerical majority, a dissolution of the compact would reduce them to a state of nature, as so many individual persons. But whilst the Constitutional compact remains undissolved, it must be executed according to the forms and provisions specified in the compact. It must not be forgotten, that compact, express or implied is the vital principle of free Governments as contradistinguished from Governments not free; and that a revolt against this principle leaves no choice but between anarchy and despotism.


598 posted on 05/28/2002 4:52:42 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: x
I for one have never stated slavery didn't enter into it. It of course did but it was not the only reason but perhaps the primary catalyst.
599 posted on 05/28/2002 4:56:07 PM PDT by wardaddy
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Comment #600 Removed by Moderator


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