The rise of neo-paganism (No, this one is NOT SATIRE)

National Review Online ^ | 27th September 1999 | Roger Scruton

[wimpycat]

I'm not trying to make fun or put you down or anything, but if, as you say, they're all pretty much the same, then why not adhere to the one most familiar to you, instead of searching high and low for the ultimate moral foundation?

You say it's an exhibition, not a competition, but you yourself are (or were, I don't know if you still are) "shopping", as it were, for the "ultimate" moral foundation, which I assume would mean the "best", which implies a selection process using your criteria. In other words, your characterization sounds exactly like a competition to me, and the best one gets you as a prize. I can't blame you for that. Why wager yourself for anything less than what you think is best?

As for me, I'm glad you told me they're pretty much all the same, since that means I'm not missing out on anything by not window-shopping for what I already have at home.

[Torie]

Neo paganism sounds promising to me, paticularly the neo bit. There is much that I admire in ancient Greek civilization. What is it about?

[EternalVigilance]

Like with so many conflicting groups I think if we just shot the loud mouths and then sat down to talk like grown-ups we'd find we have a lot more in common.

Wow.

[Ben Bolt]

Dont ask ... By doing so you will only promote the " My god is better than your god mentality " . And it goes on and on and on .. Actually , I'll stand down . I do cherish freedom of speech . This is going to be fun to watch to a point ;)

[Ben Bolt]

Duly noted ..

[discostu]

Religion has always been fascinating to me. To understand a society you have to understand the religion. I did spend a lot of time seeking but the deeper I got into it the more I saw the fingerprints of man and the further I got from an ability to believe in the supernatural. In the end I'm happiest as an atheist. The religion I was raised in was mostly Catholic, given the long history of child molestation that has plagues The Church for my entire life (this current spate is just the recent stuff, they've been shuffling child molesters from one parish to another for at least 30 years) there's going to have to be some major changes before I'll walk into that door.

The other half of my early life was spent in charismatic evangelical territory (Four Square Gospel, The Door, nice people) and that just wasn't a good fit. Having been formed in the rather stodgy environment of Catholocism where your faith was very private all that witnessing and stuff just didn't sit well with me (not saying it's bad but when you're idea of going to church is sitting down and listening to the priest for an hour people having seizures in the aisles is pretty frightening stuff). It's taken me a LONG time to overcome that uptight attitude enough that I can even discuss religion in anything more than a theoretical level. And I still get twitchy when I see athletes yelling out to Jesus and stuff... with how I was raised it's like they just took their thing out and started wanking right there on TV (sex being the other thing that simply is absolutely private in every way).

That's really the stuff that sent me on my way. But really religion has never sat well on my personality. If there is a God He made me a very self assured self reliant person who has a hard time bending knee to actual people I can actually see and who can deliver quick clear punishment; as for bending knee to someone I just have to believe is there, that's beyond out of the question.

But I still study religions, it's fun. It's an interesting view into how people think and have thought at various times in human history. But now I study them as a third party, I'm not thinking of joining any, I'm just studying them to study (gotta do something with all these hours I'm awake).

[discostu]

Not that I'm actually proposing mass executions, that's a bit extreme. But really don't you think that if all the Sharon's and Arafat's were out of the picture the normal Jews and Palestinians could settle things over coffee? Much like how if all the Christianity insulting atheists and atheism insulting Christians were out of the way this could be settled. In the end what to both Christians and atheists want? They want what everybody wants, to be left alone to do their thing without getting hassled for it.

[EternalVigilance]

But really religion has never sat well on my personality.

That may just be your problem. 'Religion' is man trying to make himself good enough for God...and it never works. Christianity is God doing all of that...and then simply asking us to receive His free gift of righteousness. There is a world of difference.

If there is a God He made me a very self assured self reliant person who has a hard time bending knee to actual people I can actually see...

You sound like you have the first part that the Revolutionists who founded this Republic had figured out...their battle-cry was, "NO KING BUT JESUS!".

[RightWhale]

the religion

Means different things to different people. Near as I can tell, religion is that which links the society together. The various components of a religion, the rituals, the beliefs, held in common are the tie that binds. It's not necessary that any of it make logical sense, but acceptance of dogma by the community means at least that you can say good morning to your neighbor in familiar terms.

[wimpycat]

But I still study religions, it's fun. It's an interesting view into how people think and have thought at various times in human history. But now I study them as a third party, I'm not thinking of joining any, I'm just studying them to study (gotta do something with all these hours I'm awake).

I know exactly how you feel about how people think and used to think throughout history.

You'll forgive me for mentioning this, but it seems to me from your brief description of your journey that what has turned you off has been the actions of people, not God. Especially in Christianity, it's very troubling to me to see all the many different human mistakes being made, even with the best intentions. I can identify with you in that aspect. But in the end, for me, I decided never to let Christians stand between me and Christ.

[Big Bunyip]

Jefferson!

[EternalVigilance]

Not that I'm actually proposing mass executions, that's a bit extreme. But really don't you think that if all the Sharon's and Arafat's were out of the picture the normal Jews and Palestinians could settle things over coffee? Much like how if all the Christianity insulting atheists and atheism insulting Christians were out of the way this could be settled.

You are hardly the first person to make this argument. I have a hunch your brand of thinking would have fit in quite well in 1920's and 30's German society.

As it was then it could easily be now. Start down that philosopical road, and at the end you will find death camps, and the destruction of nations.

[F16Fighter]

Great post...

All one has to imagine of such "peaceful", "enlightened", and "enchanting" belief systems as Islam, Scientology, and Wicca, is a world or country dominated by the likes of them...

Pure Evil, even if its participants are oblivious.

[infowarrior]

It wasn' t Virginia which was founded by Catholics, but Maryland, under Lord Calvert, one of the few English Catholic noblemen left after Elizabeth I's hissy fit...

the infowarrior

[discostu]

But it just doesn't work for me. If it works for you great, run with it. My battle cry would be shorter, it would just be "NO KING". That's what works for me. That's how I'm happy. A lot of adult conversions talk about a moment of clarity, of everything being really confusing and then suddenly clicking into place, of being lost and then finally figuring out their place in the world. That exact same thing happened to me, but instead of it all being triggered by accepting God into my life it was all triggered when I kicked Him out. That's when the world finally made sense for me. This is why I don't harrangue the believers, I didn't become an atheist in an act of rebellion, I did it because it was the answer for me. But I understand that we can't all have the same answer, whatever answer works for you is the one you should use.

[Texasforever]

Sorry, Chesterson doesn't know what he's talking about. I've been an atheist for 20 years and haven't played with any of that stuff.

Here's what I think: the only thing I believe in is me, I know what I'm capable of and I know how to make my life work. I don't believe in God,

Do you actually know anything about Wicca? Of course not. The highest precept of their faith is "do no harm". Not a bad start for a moral foundation I think.

There appears to be a bit too much protesting goin’ on around here. Atheists interest me in their ability to demean those of established religions while vehemently defending those that are on the edges. I sometimes have to wonder about their protestations. I am a “lapsed” Baptist. I found that the effort to live by their creed was just something I was not able or willing to exert. However; I don’t blame the Baptists for “forcing their morality” on me I just decided not to be a hypocrite. The reason for the rise in the new-age religions IMO is they are really easy to follow since nothing is required to do so beyond the ability to “do as you will”.

[Lazamataz]

Wiccans are not Pagans.

And America was born, in part, for religious freedom.

Even Islam, which I consider intolerant and violent.

[Big Bunyip]

Doing strange things with chickens and blowfish no doubt does the Haitians little good, but the real root of their nation's misery has been a traditional and total disdain for property rights and an absolute contempt for free speech.

All bad things thrive -- from mumbo jumbo to marxism, not just melodramatic superstition -- when those fundamental rights are denied.

[Lazamataz]

All one has to imagine of such "peaceful", "enlightened", and "enchanting" belief systems as Islam, Scientology, and Wicca, is a world or country dominated by the likes of them...Pure Evil, even if its participants are oblivious.

That's as may be, but America was founded (partly) because people were not free to practice religion as they wished. Religious freedom is a cornerstone of our great land.

And when people start deciding THIS religion or THAT religion is unacceptable, how long before they get to Judaism? There has always been a worldwide intolerance of that religion.

[EternalVigilance]

But I understand that we can't all have the same answer, whatever answer works for you is the one you should use.

But what if I served the moon-god, and he told me to exterminate all athiests like yourself?

What would happen then to your 'you do your thing, I'll do mine' fallacy?

If there is no God, why would it be wrong for me to exterminate you?

After all, I'm just doing my thing, right?