The rise of neo-paganism (No, this one is NOT SATIRE)

National Review Online ^ | 27th September 1999 | Roger Scruton

[mdmathis6]

Re: the "intolerant Puritans" They didn't stay intolerant for-ever. My goodness we talk of them as though they formed Taliban like legislative structures that have since locked our country from its founding in an Islamic like embrace. The actual witch trials in Salem only lasted six months, at the end of which, their consciences were so pricked by the deaths(and the violation of the commandment"Thou shalt not bear false witness") that it broke the power of the extreme legalism of the Puritan faith and opened the way for real love and Holy spirit power. These churches, their off shoots and other denominations that arrived throughout the early 1700's to our shores would act in concert(especially the Great Awakening in 1756) to produce the moral character needed for the colonies to break away from Britain. It produced the 80 to 90 percent literacy rate(barely 50 percent now) that deToqueville discovered in the 1840's. Let's lay-off the Puritans, their history is a little more complex than Hawthorn's mean spirited writings (incidentally he had more than a personal axe to grind against religion himself). For a more balanced view of the religious life in early America please peruse Peter Marshall's "The Light and the Glory" where he presents both the warts and beauty of the bay colonies and their histories from the 1600's through the early 1700's.

[mdmathis6]

I doubt the they are fleeing Christianity in droves so much as many are abandoning the traditional "liturgical" protestant and catholic churches due to disconnects between the relative piety of the laity and the increasing corruption being found in the church clergy. Many Christians are seeking the true source of Living Water, unpolluted by debauched "reinterpretations" of classical Christain faith and the crass commercialization[read Bible Granola diet bars and WWJD beads and bracelets, much(not all) Christian Contemporary Music.]of religious life.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Morality is completely independant of religion.

Careful.

Religion is independent of spirituality.

"Morals" are a deceptive replacement for the "avoidance of sin."

Morality is a man made construct that is different than being guided by the Spirit.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

"Again, it is my contention that you are putting the cart before the horse. True freedom flows when the True God is trusted and relied upon. Those who willfully deny Him, and thrust him away, at the same moment thrust away all of His blessings...one of the first of which is freedom. "

Absolutely correct.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Some of these neo-pagans are sandwich board nuts.

I am likewise surprised by some of the so-called atheists. Anyone who tells me I am immoral is nothing different than any preacher or rabbi telling me I'm a "sinner." (None of which have the power to condemn or take up the sword of their God's authority.)

Today, "morals" are defined by a quasi-religious philosophy based on esoteric hobgoblins.

A greater number of "atheists" and "pagans" adopt many of the same tenets of the Judaic-Christian ideal. They subscribe to the Judaic fetishism of "sin." Most are so wrapped up in their own polemics that they have become nothing more than anti-Christians. They just slap a new label on it hoping nobody will notice. They replace the idea of avoiding "sin" with "morals."

"Morals" are a deceptive replacement for the "avoidance of sin," they are a man-made construct.

This is the foundation of the gay religion, the neo-pagan religion, the environmental religion, the new religion of prime time television, and the Marxist religion.

Although "Wicca" is a partial extension of Judaic fetishism, it is purely primitive nonsense, the type that led to the execution of Socrates because he was being impious to the gods of Athens.

[EternalVigilance]

'The Light and the Glory' is a a great book.

I second that motion!

[independentmind]

The collapse of marriage is not the result of feminism, but the cause of it. Without lasting marriages, women have no real guarantee of security, and no reason for trusting men. If men cannot be trusted, then women have to set up on their own.

This is a point that the Catholic Church has made repeatedly. It's something that all FReepers should remember the next time they start grousing about feminazis and such. How many times has Rush Limbaugh been married anyway?

[Tomalak]

While I have known some Wiccans who are pro-life FOR THEMSELVES, thier view is not so cut and dry as "do no harm". In fact, I can think of a few sites where Pagan/Wiccan are justifying abortion as "degrees" of do no harm.

Right. And being "personally opposed but pro-choice" is despicable hypocrisy. You either believe babies have the right to life or they don't. If they do, then no one has the right to take that life away without breaking the law. If they don't, then there is no sense in limiting yourself, when clearly they deserve no such thing.

[discostu]

No, that wasn't hyperbole. It was an insult of a very specific type of person. That person that, like Chesterson, goes to great lengths to tell me what I'm thinking. There's a group of people within Christianity that try to tell atheists and agnostics why they aren't Christians and what you must believe if you don't believe in their God (as I pointed out at one point in this thread there is a vice versa crowd giving these same declaratives about Christianity). These people are idiots. Pure and simple. Their idiocy has nothing to do with their faith, it has to do with how much time they spending telling people they obviously know nothing about what's going on inside those people's heads.

[discostu]

I'm not bashing Christianity, only certain Christians. I've stayed well away from the tenents of the religion in this discussion because I don't think that's the point. From what I see here's the basic issue: there's a group of people that call themselves Christians that are an embarassment. Play a thought game for a moment, pretend you've never heard of either Christianity or Wicca, remove all predispositions about either, now re-read this thread. Which religion would you be interested in? I think we have a group of people making vast declarative statements about things they don't understand that, and that group is all tied to Christianity. These are the folks reading people's mind, these are the folks showing a dramatic fear of something they clearly know nothing about.

As for my belief in myself that stops at the boundaries of the physical and the known. I don't play with any of that woovy groovy stuff. I know what I'm capable of and it has never and will never involve spells or other trapping of Wicca or other forms of paganism. That's just not my game.

[discostu]

Yeah that's why I picked that one, though I couldn't make the sentence work the way I wanted it to. Too tired to turn a good phrase. Basically I was trying to say that crediting Wicca with the works of Crowley is like crediting Catholicism with the works of Martin Luther. Sure they're both in the same religion (paganism on one hand, Christianity on the other), but they aren't in the same sect and are't in general agreement on a lot of basic stuff.

[HENRYADAMS]

The same beliefs occurred at or near the time Rome transmuted into an empire from a republic. The rise of witchcraft is one more symptom of a collapsing order.

[A. Pole]

Excellent!

[A. Pole]

How about filling the internet with self righteous BS that drives people away from your perfect little religion.

Yes, Wicca is a little religion but its size is not the point.

[wildehunt]

Call me if they start blowing up buildings or hijacking planes...
Otherwise, for all I care, they can dance naked in the woods till the Summerland freezes over...

[WyldKard]

The same beliefs occurred at or near the time Rome transmuted into an empire from a republic. The rise of witchcraft is one more symptom of a collapsing order.

Er...now wait a second. Maybe I'm missing something here, but weren't the Romans pagans to begin with, and then their progress from Republicanism into Imperial rule seems to chart along with the rise of Christianity?

Certainly I'm not blaming Christianity for that, but it seems just as silly to blame "paganism" on the fall of Rome, as it was around for hundreds of years before hand.

I think it had more to do with the fact that Democracies and Republics have a nasty tendancy to start turning into dictatorships "when people learn they can elect themselves someone who will give them access to the public treasury".

I forgot who wrote it, but I remember someone posting up a quote from an ancient Greek who stated the above, and even pegged the lifespan of a democracy at about 200 years....freaky.

[A. Pole]

Er...now wait a second. Maybe I'm missing something here, but weren't the Romans pagans to begin with, and then their progress from Republicanism into Imperial rule seems to chart along with the rise of Christianity?

Christianity became powerful a couple centuries LATER. This "couple centuries" was the period as long as from American Revolution to this day. Christainity was BORN at the time of Roman decadence and spread of witchcraft, but it was among distant and distinct Jews. Only later Christianity took over and transformed decayed pagan society. If there is the causal relationship it is one more step detached: first was the collapsing order then second was spread of witchcraft and despair and the third was Christian repentance.

Certainly I'm not blaming Christianity for that, but it seems just as silly to blame "paganism" on the fall of Rome, as it was around for hundreds of years before hand.

It the text the words used were - "symptom of a collapsing order". This collapsing order was pagan and contained some pagan natural virtues. The collapse was connected with the corruption of the good aspects of old Roman religion into the witchcraft, decadence and perversion.

To repeat - Christianity prevailed LONG AFTER the Republic died.

[Avoiding_Sulla]

Wonderful post.

There is some real scholarship and worthwhile insights out there flowering amongst the weeds.
Any of us can weave together some relevent meaning from it all if we employ but a little effort.

Thank you, Askel.

Av