Posted on 05/04/2002 7:45:25 PM PDT by Tomalak
Morality is completely independant of religion.
I offer, as example, Islam.
Oh, they mean those things. But since you are ignorant of history, and of the One True God who stands above history, you simply can't recognize where your line of thinking ultimately will lead you.
Until you answer the Lord's knock on your door, you won't understand either.
I'm going to bed now, but I'll pray for you, and for all my other FReeper friends here who haven't met him yet. Good night.
Then I take it that the above statement was made as both hyperbole and a visceral dislike for a person that appears to have done some research that neglected to get the facts from your friends?
Sorta like eating the chocolate cake, but not letting ya "lick the spoon"?? ;-)
BTW, IMO "outsiders" must respect who were the one and original founders of the ideal of America and it's Constitution, and thus its heritage -- for the most part, English Christians. Who's treated massive immigration better in the history of mankind?
What does this mean?
BTW, IMO "outsiders" must respect who were the one and original founders of the ideal of America and it's Constitution, and thus its heritage -- for the most part, English Christians. Who's treated massive immigration better in the history of mankind?
Well, to be fair, massive immigration was necessary to make the country function from the outset. It was empty after all. And the same English Christians who were very pro-immigration when we were nearly empty seem to be Pat Buchanan-ing on us now that we are pretty full.
If you genuinely believe that, then you must be a dualist (which I doubt you are) because, by logical extension, all bad things must flow from somewhere else, which would make Old Scratch co-equal with God. It's an interesting theological point to argue, but essentially irrelevant.
Societies that deny free speech and property rights, on the other hand, have long, indeed inevitable, records of despotism, decay and disintegration. Such is the demonstrable result of denying liberty. God makes a pleasant neighbor, but property rights make the neighborhood in the first place.
Wicca, or Druidism, is a religion which has practised human sacrifice in any society in which it has held power (the last one being Pictish Scotland). The reason people are leaving Christianity for Wicca is the same reason people are leaving Christianity for Scientology. which is generally that, like most people in the elite levels of society, they have no more knowledge of Christianity than you do, which is, as you have demonstrated, precious little.
Adams, Madison, Webster, a huge majority of the signees of the Declaration of Independence, and other "genuine" Christian forefathers seem to be conveniently ignored.
Nonetheless, while they all envisioned a nation of citizens respecting the faith of others, I can't imagine they imagined any Wiccan governors or town Elders. Ever.
As I said before, tough. The country was founded because of religious freedom.
Having it great isn't good enough, Utopia preferred of course...
"The same English Christians who were very pro-immigration when we were nearly empty seem to be Pat Buchanan-ing on us now that we are nearly full."
Yeah, yeah I know -- Pat Buchanan is a neo-Nazi as are all who "think" like him...Anyway your position apparently is to open the borders and invite every culturally and morally backwards, Third World immigrant who unilaterally decides settling in America is his God-given right?
Naaah -- don't think so.
Whether things are presently good for American Jews or not is not the point. I am pointing out that intolerance for (IMO) oddball religions such as Wicca or Paganism or even Islam means the door is open for intolerance for more and more religions, and history shows us that Judaism is eventually always in the crosshairs. That is my point, not the manufactured point that "Judaism is presently not tolerated."
Yeah, yeah I know -- Pat Buchanan is a neo-Nazi as are all who "think" like him...Anyway your position apparently is to open the borders and invite every culturally and morally backwards, Third World immigrant who unilaterally decides settling in America is his God-given right?
No. You are putting words in my mouth and I believe that is unsanitary.
Again, you are missing my point. You said that it was Christianity that made people tolerant of immigration. I refuted by saying it was a nearly empty country that made people tolerant of immigration, and if you look at modern-day Christians, such as yourself or Messr. Buchanan, you will see that many Christians no longer hold a pro-immigration view.
Thusly, I believe I have effectively refuted the assertion that religious persuasion played a role in tolerance of immigration.
Yeah, and who were these "founders" creating this "religious freedom"? Muslims? Wiccans? Buddhists? Jews?
You can't change history. Too bad...
It does not matter what they were. They were leaving for a higher purpose than the establishment of one particular religion. They were leaving for religious freedom, which is much more noble than leaving for one particular religion.
And I, for one, thank them for their noble purpose. I can practice my Judaism unmolested and freely, with no fear.
Why, they felt so strongly about religious freedom, that they wrote "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Too bad for you, that you can't change history.
Of course Wicca is a silly pseudo-religion, but it accords with feminism that has shaped American life over the last three decades. It may even pick up devotees. Western monotheisms have been getting a bad press lately, what with Middle Eastern terrorism and sex scandals at home.
This is a good example of morality being completely dependant on religion. A good religion leads to a state capable of civic virtue. An evil religion, which is what the Islamists have, has lead to all of the violence, cruelty, and corruption, not to mention lack of liberty, so pervasive in virtually all Islamic countries save Turkey, which has a secular state, and has suppressed the evil nature of the religious leaders.
Like Wicca, Islam seems to be based, in its mainline form, on sensuality, which is why they promise their 'heroes' virgins to be deflowered in paradise.
Closing lines of Men Without Chests:
Here and there you have one who seems positively proud to have not been reached, as if having eluded some debilitating disease. And while you offer to them charitable counter-argument, you are lacking Lewis' insights and counsel.
From Lewis' Miracles:
I wonder how many of these fools would think they're more brilliant than Isaac Newton, who in half self deprecation, half modesty, but all confidence, explained "If I have perhaps seen further than other men, it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants." Some in our generation and the next see no need to be modest nor any need for self-skepticism. Sadly, not only ignoramuses are so easily misled.
As always, general, I commend your efforts. I wish I could imbue more useful knowledge at the snap of my figures. Alas, that must be incorporated, thru labor, by the one feeling the need to respond. "...but can't make him drink."
Peace.
Av
Some truths are self-evident.
If you genuinely believe that, then you must be a dualist (which I doubt you are) because, by logical extension, all bad things must flow from somewhere else, which would make Old Scratch co-equal with God. It's an interesting theological point to argue, but essentially irrelevant.
In this you are correct; I am no dualist. I'm not quite sure what the rest of your statement means. Perhaps I am slow of mind at 3 am, or perhaps you are being obtuse. I will leave that for others to judge.
Societies that deny free speech and property rights, on the other hand, have long, indeed inevitable, records of despotism, decay and disintegration. Such is the demonstrable result of denying liberty. God makes a pleasant neighbor, but property rights make the neighborhood in the first place.
Again, it is my contention that you are putting the cart before the horse. True freedom flows when the True God is trusted and relied upon. Those who willfully deny Him, and thrust him away, at the same moment thrust away all of His blessings...one of the first of which is freedom.
I will post one bit of scripture to back up this contention...a passage I believe to be utterly correct, and explanatory of much of the misery caused by unbelieving men, particularly in the past century:
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
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