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The Fall of the Libertarians
Opinion Journal ^ | 05/02/2002 | FRANCIS FUKUYAMA

Posted on 05/01/2002 9:09:03 PM PDT by Pokey78

Edited on 04/23/2004 12:04:26 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Sept. 11 might have also brought down a political movement.

The great free-market revolution that began with the coming to power of Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan at the close of the 1970s has finally reached its Thermidor, or point of reversal. Like the French Revolution, it derived its energy from a simple idea of liberty, to wit, that the modern welfare state had grown too large, and that individuals were excessively regulated. The truth of this idea was vindicated by the sudden and unexpected collapse of Communism in 1989, as well as by the performance of the American and British economies in the 1990s.


(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: libertarians
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To: Kevin Curry
Sadly you seem to be proving my point. Do you think all the votes for Bush over Gore came from white protestant males? But if someone is outside their group, "must be a liberal"? What if 70% of the Muslim vote in Florida had not gone to Bush, how would you like President Gore?
101 posted on 05/02/2002 9:06:26 AM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: Reagan Man
Gunslngr3 wrote:
"There is no place for ad hominem."

To which you replied:
"I agree. I have made no ad hominem attacks against you. I just pointed out the obvious. You are a newbee, are you not? I think so. And you better get use to FReepers pointing out your shortcomings. It gets worse."

I trust the irony of this statement is not lost on folks?

102 posted on 05/02/2002 9:07:17 AM PDT by Liberal Classic
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To: Kevin Curry
I wrote to LarryLied:
"This ad hominem argument is even worse than the article."

To which you replied to me:
"You wouldn't know an ad hominem argument if it jumped out of a gutter and bit you square on the butt."

Kevin, would you care to support that allegation?

103 posted on 05/02/2002 9:09:04 AM PDT by Liberal Classic
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To: Alan Chapman; Lurker
It would appear the majority of libertarians once frequenting this site have moved on.
104 posted on 05/02/2002 9:10:33 AM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: NittanyLion
The Fall of Libertarians, I thought, was going to be about the McKinley Assination not contemporary politics...
105 posted on 05/02/2002 9:19:08 AM PDT by JohnGalt
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To: Pokey78
Just thinking out loud, it seems to me that there are roughly three major strands of the pro-liberty movement that have an active constituency at the moment: opposition to the U.S. taking such a dominant role in the world, opposition to the welfare state, and opposition to the war (especially the federal war) on vice. Of the three, the last is the one where pro-liberty arguments seem to be gaining the most traction, which is IMHO a pity because it is the least important. Opposition to the welfare state is starting to become more respectable - witness welfare reform, serious proposals for Social Security privatization, etc. - but here much work remains to be done.

But Mr. Fukuyama is right that the isolationist strand of the liberty movement has gained almost no traction with the public. Most of the American people seem to be disposed to use our immense power to make the world more like us, and hence (as they see it) better. The constituency for Fortress America is practically nil, and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

106 posted on 05/02/2002 9:22:35 AM PDT by untenured
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To: newwahoo
Reagan stated that Conservatism is based on Libertarianism. Just because we don't have a LibTar-Party prez don't mean our ideas haven't gotten into that office.

EBUCK

107 posted on 05/02/2002 12:08:30 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: Lancey Howard
From my encounters and discussions with "libertarians", it seems to me that most of them are embarrassed, disillusioned Democrats. Over time, they came to realize how morally corrupt and dishonest the Democrat party is, but they could never bring themselves to go over to the party (Republican) that they were brought up by their parents to despise. So they take the convenient cop-out and become "libertarians". Whenever you see a "not-a-dime's-worth-of-difference" post or a "Bush-is-no-better-than-the-Democrats" post, you know that this is one of these people posting. They are often very bitter people. I often get the impression from their posts that they are red-faced with rage as they type, obsessed with beating their point of view into the reader. Their lack of a sense of humor is instantly recognizable as the same old affliction seen in liberals. They just can't hide it.

File this away in your "encounters and discussions with Libertarians".

My father is a rank and file pub-Bot. I'm embarrased to say it but he is. And over time I came to realize how morally corrupt and dishonest the Republican party is, but I could never bring myself to go over to the party (DemonRat) that I was brought up by my parents to despise.

Most of us used to be pubs before we realized that the pub party is the party of social order and corporate welfare. They are still susposed to stand for fiscal conservation but even that is a lie.

EBUCK

108 posted on 05/02/2002 12:27:49 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: Moonman62
Heck, it seems Republicans don't even know what a Republican is. They each have their own self-centered definition, naturally. (see McCain for proof)

BUCK

109 posted on 05/02/2002 12:31:02 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: Reagan Man
Libertarian's are

anti-government Soooo True, are you pro-gubment?

, anti-military Bald faced Lie

, anti-religionAnother Bald Faced Lie

, anti-community Nope, just pro-individual, individual > society

and anti-societyNope, just pro-individual, individual > society. Don't you understand that society is made up of individuals?

Don't you libertarian pinheads get it, yet?! How do you expect mankind to exist in a world fill with so many anti-human values and beliefs. What makes human beings so unique and special among all of Gods creatures, is not just our abilities to think and create, but also our ability to adapt to change. It's what has defined mankind through the millennia. Most libertarian's believe that individualism, is all mankind needs to grow and propser. What utter foolish nonsense. In my book, that makes you libertarians nothing but selfish, godless heathens. Man is a social creature. Libertarians want everyone to live in a social bubble. As long as you libertarians can smoke your pot, have your pornography and prostitutes, you're all fat, dumb and happy.

So somehow higher taxes, more gubment intrusion, less freedom and more social engineering enhances mankind? The basic tenent of a society must be "individual rights and freedoms" in order to acheive peace and prosperiety. As soon as one mans obtains power over anothers actions conflict arises.

EBUCK

110 posted on 05/02/2002 12:40:46 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: austinTparty
Mr. Fukuyama should have divulged that he participated in a book forum at the Cato Institute very recently regarding the whole cloning issue.

Didn't you get the memo? The End Of History[tm], circa January 1993, liberated man from those bourgeois ethical constraints.

111 posted on 05/02/2002 12:41:20 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Lurker
Trent Lott couldn't buy a clue if you gave him a thousand dollars, a map, and a bus ticket.

The Senate Republicans have a "leader" who couldn't lead sailors to a whore house and harbors delusions of competence. And they wonder why people call them The Stupid Party.

112 posted on 05/02/2002 12:45:28 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: steve-b
The End Of History[tm], circa January 1993, liberated man from those bourgeois ethical constraints.

It certainly is a lot easier when one's only goal is to retain office. Once people are liberated from making judgments other than "Is this politically expedient?" ethics/morality/belief systems play no role. It would appear, for many around these parts, that the election of Clinton turned principled stances into a free-for-all power struggle.

113 posted on 05/02/2002 12:48:33 PM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: Reagan Man
Man is a social creature.


114 posted on 05/02/2002 12:49:38 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Reagan Man
The Republican Party is the home for the conservative movement in America.

Actually, these days it seems to be the home for the spineless squishes.

115 posted on 05/02/2002 12:53:51 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Thraka
The principle of repetetive lying making something true is dear to your heart, eh, Reagan Man?

Reagan would see through "Reagan Man"'s nonsense, even in his present condition.

116 posted on 05/02/2002 12:57:55 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Thraka
That is correct. As long as we _can_. We need not do so; we need only the liberty to do so, if we choose. Men without choices cannot practice morality; they can only do what they are permitted. Again, I note that you seem limited in some capacity, that you cannot distinguish the difference between the two, and yet, I know that you are not limited. You _choose_ blindness, as did Saul. He spent the rest of his life making up for that. One wonders when the scales will fall from the eyes of you and your ilk.

Best post I've seen in a long time. Best Ive seen in a very long time. Thank you!

EBUCK

117 posted on 05/02/2002 12:58:03 PM PDT by EBUCK
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To: untenured
There's some truth to that, but it's not relevant to Fukuyama's argument. His nonsensical notion that government-provided security needs to expand is refuted by the facts (as has already been pointed out, the sole successful resistance to the 9/11 terrorists was by private citizens acting on their own initiative, hindered rather than helped by government "security").
118 posted on 05/02/2002 1:02:12 PM PDT by steve-b
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To: Don Myers
Well, their silly support of illegal drugs and porn for all doesn't help their cause either.

Well I for one would rather have government out of our lives and out of our pockets that what we have today. When you give government power they allways try to take more than they are supposed to. In the end the U.S. will go the way of the Roman Empire.

119 posted on 05/02/2002 1:03:01 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon
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To: untenured
there are roughly three major strands of the pro-liberty movement that have an active constituency at the moment: opposition to the U.S. taking such a dominant role in the world, opposition to the welfare state, and opposition to the war (especially the federal war) on vice

Excellent analysis. As a small-l libertarian I agree completely with points 2 and 3, and less so on 1. While there are areas where our foreign policy could be less interventionist (e.g. I see no reason to arm both Israel and its enemies), it's clear that the world contains plenty of people that want to kill us, and one of the government's most important jobs should be to keep that from happening.

120 posted on 05/02/2002 1:10:09 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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