I see plenty of structures still standing.
And the Grandcamps was right alongside the dock, not "hundreds of yards away from the nearest structures"...though I'm pretty sure they were destroyed (no pics).
Posted on 04/19/2002 8:35:39 AM PDT by Registered
| "Deathbed" Confession Transcript -- World Exclusive Posted April 19, 2002 The following interview with ELMINA ABDUL, widow of EDWIN ANGELES, one of the cofounders of the ABU SAYYAF GROUP (ASG), and deep cover agent for the Defense Intelligence Group (DIG) of the Department of National Defense (DND), of the Republic of the Philippines, was taken on March 10, 2002, in the presence of CHRISTOPHER M. PUNO, Information Officer of the Province of Basilan, at BASCOM Hospital, in the general ward. TRANSLATED TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW WITH ELMINA ABDUL, WIDOW TO EDWIN ANGELES TAKEN AT BASILAN COMMUNITY HOSPITAL GENERAL WARD ISABELA CITY, PROVINCE OF BASILAN REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES BY DORIAN ZUMEL SICAT NEWS CORRESPONDENT MANILA TIMES, OMEGA NEWS SERVICE (USA) (After introduction to ELMINA ABDUL by Provincial Information Officer Christopher Puno) NOTE: I interviewed ELMINA in Tagalog, she answered me in Chavacano and Cebuano, two of the local dialects spoken in Basilan. She did not speak in the indigenous dialect because she knew that I do not speak or understand that dialect. DZS: Good morning Ms. Angeles DZS: How are you feeling this morning? EA: Not very well. DZS: Do you feel like talking with me? EA: Yes, but not so long. I am tired. DZS: I will try to be as short as possible. Did Chris tell you what I am here to talk to you about? EA: Yes. And I am the one who asked him to look for you after I was told that you are interested in the truth about my husband. DZS: Good. Okay. You are not Edwin's first wife, is that true? EA: Yes. I am his third wife. For Muslim men, they can have even four wives, if each of the other ones approve. DZS: How, when and where did you meet Edwin? EA: We met when he was in the Provincial Jail here in Isabela, in 1995. I was then working for the government radio station, dxOS (Philippine Information Agency)/PIA. DZS: That was after his capture? EA: Yes. DZS: When did you marry him? EA: In 1997. DZS: I am going to ask you some very sensitive questions now. Is that all right with you? EA: Yes. I want to tell the truth of what I know of my late husband. DZS: Did you know that he was one of those who founded the ASG, along with the late Abdurajak Abubakar Janjalani, in 1991? EA: Yes. I know also why he was one of them. DZS: Can you tell me why? EA: Yes, I want to tell you why. I want now to tell the truth about my husband. I will die soon. I want you to know the truth. Will you write the truth, Mr. Sicat? DZS: Yes. I will. I promise. EA: You are not afraid? DZS: More than you know, Mrs. Angeles. EA: Good. Maybe you will stay alive and safe because of your fear. I will tell you that Edwin was ordered to do that. DZS: Can you explain please. EA: He was what they call a deep penetration agent or DPA. DZS: Can you explain please? EA: As I told you, he was given orders. DZS: By whom? EA: Some very powerful men in the DND. DZS: Did he tell you why? EA: No. Only that he was ordered to help to organize the ASG and to report all developments. DZS: Did he tell you who it was? EA: Not by names. But he told my only at the highest levels. DZS: Did he ever tell you about his activities in the ASG before he met you? EA: He told me everything. I do not believe that he would hide anything from me when we were talking alone. DZS: Please do not be offended, but how do you know that? EA: Not only because I was his wife, but because he knew that he would soon be killed. He wanted me to know everything so that if anything happened to him I could tell others. DZS: Do you want to stop now? EA: No. More water please. DZS: Can I ask you about some things that happened back in the mid-90s? 1993, 1994? EA: Yes. I will try to answer what you ask. DZS: Did he ever talk to you about meetings with Arabs or Americans? EA: Yes, once he had met with some Arabs and Americans in 1994, in Davao (City), or General Santos (City). DZS: Did he tell you who they were? EA: Does the name Ramsey Yousef mean something to you Mr. Sicat? DZS: Ahmad Hassim. Does that mean something to you? EA: He had met with them. And an American who he called Terry or the Farmer, and another American whom he did not name. DZS: Was the American he named as Terry, Terry Nichols? EA: He did not mention the surname. Only Terry. DZS: Did he tell you why and how many times they had met? EA: They met almost every day for one week. They met in an empty bodega (warehouse). They talked about bombings. They mentioned bombing government buildings in San Francisco, Saint Louis and in Oklahoma. The Americans wanted instructions how to make and to explode bombs. He (Edwin) told me that Janjalani was very interested in paying them much money to explode the buildings. The money was coming from Yousef and the other Arab. DZS: Did he tell you when the bombs would explode; when they exploded? EA: He told me that the Americans exploded one bomb in Oklahoma in 1995, after he was arrested and after we first met. DZS: Did he ever tell you who was supplying the money for the bombing of the building, I mean who Yousef was working with or for? EA: Mr. Sicat, you are the mediaman. Do you not know that Yousef was representing Iraq and Saddam Hussein? Do you not know that? DZS: Did Edwin tell you that? EA: Not only Edwin, but others that were close to us, before he was killed. One time, a soldier (Philippine Army) and Edwin were talking secretly. I was there because Edwin demanded. The soldier ordered Edwin never to tell anybody about the Iraqis. DZS: Did you ever see that soldier before or after that time? EA: Only two times before. He was the one who would talk to him for information. DZS: Mrs. Angeles, do you know who killed your husband, Edwin? EA: The ones who used him and then betrayed him, Mr. Sicat. (She grows visibly weaker). I want to rest now. DZS: I understand. I'll let you rest now. Thank you so much, Mrs. Angeles. You have told me so much. I will try to see you tomorrow if you are up to it. NOTE: I was not able to speak with ELMINA again. She became too weak and incoherent the following day. A few days later, the doctors had diagnosed that she was terminal. She needed to be transferred to Davao City to the Regional Hospital (government) for treatment. A few days later, while I was in Davao, arranging for her admission to the Regional Hospital, Chris told me that she could no longer be moved. She would die in transit. Since Muslims require burial within 24 hours of death, I understood the reasoning. The following day, Chris contacted me that ELMINA ABDUL, widow to EDWIN ANGELES (killed by unknown assailants in 1998), died in the pre-dawn hours Saturday March 30. She was the last one to talk with her husband before he was killed. I was the last and only reporter to talk with her about her husband before she died. (sgd) DORIAN ZUMEL SICAT News Correspondent Manila Times /Omega News Service (USA) Investigative Liaison to Law Office of John Michael Johnston Robert Bickel, Sr. Senior Investigator and Legal Analyst Law offices of John Michael Johnston Elmina Abdul Angeles Statement |
Understood, yet the scaling still fits: the ships in question were some distance from what was destroyed, while McVeigh's truck was only a sidewalk-width away. The former also caused significantly more destruction despite the distance. Amount vs. distance. vs. damage seems to scale properly sans conspiracy.
That's true...and which is why I contend one truckload was enough: I've found enough information "out there" to justify the standard OKC theory.
What's more interesting in this thread is that Doc claims it's out there, claims to have the number I'm asking for, but refuses to give it and insults me instead.
McVeigh claimed to have done practice runs (scale unknown) to determine how to direct the blast. IIRC, he ultimately used 8 55-gallon drums arranged in a J shape: that works out to about 400 gallons, and thus roughly 4000 pounds, arranged to increase the effect in one direction. 2 tons at 2 yards causing OKC damage matches pretty well to 1000 tons at hundreds of yards causing Texas City damage, esp. with the former intentional and the latter accidental.
We may not have exact figures, but all the data fits together pretty well.
You serve your cause poorly by being so obvious. You betray your expensive training. Your Masters will be displeased.
All we really don't know is "Why?"
What strikes me is that Doc is standing around a hole, a peg and a hammer and rabidly telling me how well the peg fits the hole without actually trying to put it in, and getting furious when I ask him to simply show me.
Only practical difference was intent.
The only thing they had in common was ammonium nitrate, and that in hugely disproportionate amounts.
What's so "disproportionate" about them? Larger amount produced larger damage - go figure. My whole thesis is that the blasts ARE proportionate, and I'm asking for reasoning to the contrary.
there was diesel fuel added at OKC and none at Texas City making OKC an ANFO device, unlike at TC
Some accounts do note additional fuel seeping into the TC AN containers. If anything, the deliberate addition of diesel in the OKC device enhanced the force produced (that on top of the deliberate arranging of containers to direct the blast). If anything is disproportionate, it's that the OKC blast was MORE powerful per unit of AN, further reinforcing my theory.
What's so "disproportionate" about them?
How far away was OKC felt? Fifteen miles?
That particular article says...Some 2,300 tons were already onboard, 880 of which were in the lower part of Hold 4.
Multiple tons vs 2.5-3 tons is what is so "disproportionate" about them.
My whole thesis is that the blasts ARE proportionate...
No where near the same in proportion IMO, but to each his own...You do state it is a "thesis" and I've stated my opinion so I guess we're back to square one.
...and I'm asking for reasoning to the contrary.
I've already tried reason and you don't see eye to eye with me. IMO you're being contrary, not asking for reasoning to the contrary!
Do you understand the word "proportionate"?
The difference in quantity is simply a different quantity, no proprotion. The "proprotion" is the comparison of the ratios of quantities to effects for different size quantities (or effects). A large quantity of AN going off had a large effect (to wit: moving buildings 15 miles away), while a medium quantity of AN going off had a medium effect (to wit: partial damage to immediately adjacent building, and broken windows within a mile). The damage at OKC was substantial, yes, yet it was proportionately less than a significantly larger quantity at TC: the truck was parked about 15 feet from the building, which suffered as much or more damage from gravity (having support columns blown out at the base) and was not wholly destroyed, vs. TC where the AN was hundreds of yards away from the nearest structures (which were demolished), and rattled buildings 15 miles away.
You really need to review the meaning of "proprotionate". There's more to it than comparing two numbers: it actually compares four.
IMO you're being contrary, not asking for reasoning to the contrary!
Let me ask it a different way then:
Damage at TC Damage at OKC
------------- = -------------
~2000 tons AN ~2 tons AN
So what's wrong with this equation?
So that's it? Criticize the view and leave? If I'm wrong, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY! I'd gladly change my opinion IF someone can provide a reasonable explaination of why I'm wrong; tellingly, the conspiracy theorists just insult me and run off when pressed for facts. What's so scary about proportionality to historical events?
Something to think about. Would the range of damage have been less if the amount in the holds of the ships had been less? Would there have been less damage if the truck bomb had a lesser amount? How much would a reduced amount have had in each situation? A lessening of the amounts at TC wouldn't have caused that much of a difference while it would have at OKC.
And also, keep in mind that there were two explosions at TC, and only one at OKC, increasing the damage there.
BTW...Dipole Might tests results 1994...maybe you can find out something about the Dipole Might tests.
The tests for this project were conceived using four of the most common roadbed types in the United States and explosive charges that varied in size from 50 pounds to 1,000 pounds, and in type from C-4 to ANFO (C-4 to represent the effect of plastic explosives, and ANFO for its common availability and use in terrorist devices). By repeating several surfaces with different explosives weights and types, more data is able to be gathered with fewer events.
Here is something for both of us...Constructing an Obstacle Utilizing Off-Route Demolition Techniques-- A Practical Approach by MAJ Frank Akins
(Can't dig into this at the moment; will cogitate & reply later.)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.