Posted on 04/16/2002 5:49:34 PM PDT by history_matters
BETHLEHEM, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian gunmen hiding in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity have exchanged fire with Israeli soldiers who have surrounded the traditional birthplace of Jesus in a two-week-old standoff.
Fransiscan Father Seweryn Lubecki, who is one of several dozen Christian clerics stranded in the church after Palestinian gunmen burst in two weeks ago, said the fighting lasted for about an hour.
"We could hear heavy rifle and tank shooting. It is hard for us to determine who started the shooting. We are locked up and we could not see the whole thing," he told Reuters by telephone.
"It seems that the basilica was not damaged. The Israeli soldiers are very careful not to damage it," he said.
Mohammed Al-Madani, the governor of Bethlehem who is among those holed-up inside, said the Israelis had tried to storm the church but failed.
"They tried to get in, but they couldn't," he told Reuters by telephone. "There are no injuries, thank God."
The army said in a statement: "Palestinian opened fire at Israeli forces who fired back at the source of the fire."
Israeli forces who invaded Bethlehem two weeks ago besieged the shrine after dozens of gunmen burst into the church compound to seek refuge with some 50 monks, priests and nuns.
Israeli officials say around 30 gunmen in the church were wanted for deadly attacks against Israelis and the forces would not leave until they either surrendered and were put on trial in Israel or agreed to accept safe-passage into exile.
Bethlehem's governor Madani has rejected the plan.
FLARES IN BETHLEHEM SKY
During the exchange, four flares lit up the sky, while the church bell rang in the background.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Israeli television in an interview U.S. Central Intelligence Agency officials had mediated the deal to end the impasse but it had not yet received Palestinian Authority approval.
He said some of the gunmen were involved in militant attacks in which American citizens were killed.
"Those who are not involved in terror acts and are not members of terror groups will be released and those who are involved must decide between standing trial in Israel...or being expelled," Sharon said.
Israel has said it has no intention of storming the church. Asked about Israeli plans, Major Tal Ravlan, an army spokesman, said: "There are a few alternatives to storming the church but I would not like to get into it right now."
A statement from Palestinians inside, which was sent to a local hospital official, said the army was arresting family members to put them under pressure to give themselves up.
The Israeli army said it only arrested people it suspected of "terrorist" activity and did not use arrests to exert any psychological pressure on others.
Earlier, the Israeli army evacuated two Palestinians needing medical attention from the church in a military ambulance. The Israeli army said both men, one of them wounded by gunshot wounds several days ago, were placed under arrest.
Israeli soldiers on Tuesday occupied the top floor of a hotel overlooking the church complex. Ravlan said the army would be staying for two to three days, but did not give any reasons.
I assure you, the Francicans harbor no ambitions to be seen as heroes.
And yes they have a gun to their heads.
I know; it's already kiilled their bell-ringer and wounded a monk.
If the Israelis are still interested in recommending themselves to world opinion as the most reliable guarantors of the Holy Places, they must approach the Church of the Nativity with reverence -- not like the operators of a religious theme park who're sending in pest control to spiff up a popular ride.
I believe you are correct in that I do not believe Israel will withdraw from this confrontation. The armed Palestinians in the Church must face justice for their desecrating presence in the Church, and the Israelis must answer for their violation of the treaty with the Vatican. Twelve years ago I would have, like most Americans, blindly believed that Israel was always right and the Palestinians were always wrong. It is much more complicated than that. There are evil people, and ordinary people, and noble people on both sides of this conflict. And wrong is wrong.
I saw the rise in radicalization of the Muslims in Bethlehem, and then for a year in Nazareth I saw the same. After my time in Nazareth, I have no love for or trust in Muslim clerics or Muslim mobs. This radicalization of the native Muslim population took place because of the influence of Wahabbis (courtesy of Saudi Arabia) on the one hand and then incredibly Hisbollah on the other. The success of Hizbollah stymied me because they are Shia and most Palestinian Muslims are Sunni. But all of these lines are getting blurred by the terrorist networks and unified by their common opposition and sheer hatred of Israel. It is this hatred that blinds them to reason and makes it almost impossible to deal with them at any level.
I have one capital concern, and that is for the Palestinian Christians, and a secondary concern for the Holy Places. I personally believe partition is the only plan that will work with all Palestinians in a Palestinian nation, and all Israelis in Israel. I have come to believe that complete separation is the only answer. It would mean a great upheaval of Palestinians and Israelis, but in the end it would be better than warfare and terrorism. I also believe that such a plan is virtually impossible without divine intervention.
This sort of ad hominem is not necessary.
That would not surprise me.
Hog wash. If Mr. Pacwa spoke truthfully, the news would be full of Israeli body counts, each exceeding those of the PA. In war, there are only winners and losers. Victims are of their own making and indeed never look at history, nor are they looked upon, but simply become part of the process. Mr. Pacwa and his icon loving priests seem well on their way toward the scrapheap of history ... or as someone has hinted this church will make a good looking mosque or is it possibly one already? It does seems strange that it wasn't destroyed in 614, but essentially assimilated by Persians because of the Magi on the door.
So you want the Israeli's to approach with reverence, like not shoot at the building as they have issued orders right? Now tell me, how do you want the PLO to approach, by blowing in the doors and taking the monks hostage with machine guns, and using the church for a bunker to snipe at the IDF like they have done? Your anti-Joo bias is incredible! Murder, kidnapping, attempted murder, breaking and entering is all excusable, as long as it is a Moslem, but have a Jew try to enforce the law, international law at that which places Israel as the sole legal responsible person for law and order in the territorys and you get all puffy. Simply incredible...
Such bias beyond reason is why World War III is inevitable.
history_matters wrote:General"I had wondered how it would be read by someone whose support for Israel was unilateral and unswerving." [emphasis added]
Maybe if history really matters to history_matters, perhaps a review of what dhimmis' have had to endure throughout history (John Huang's thread Dhimmis for dummies) may allow history_matters to respond with a bit more aplomb and perhaps a diminished (don't anybody hold their breath) air of superiority?
Some of us have legitimate reasons or concerns for choosing our screennames (see my profile, and the general's too), while others choose theirs in mockery.
Did you respond without the sidestep yet to the general? (I haven't looked while composing this -- I pray I'm about to be delighted).
Av
What's with this "Joo" business anyway?
Sadly, the answer to some prayers is "No".
Posthumous Victory of Hitler
We know that numerous Nazis left Germany to find refuge in various countries. Hunters of Nazis try to localize them and to present them to the courts. How many Nazis took the road of Israel? No one knows. The events which take place these days in the Middle East legitimise this question.
Jörg Shimon Schuldhess, a Jewish artist from Basel, distributed a leaflet dated 16 October 1986. He relates that during his stay in Galilee, he went often to Naharya where he discovered that all the owners of stores originated from the territory of the Great Germany. He wonders how that is possible if the Nazis had exterminated the German Jews. He indicates that the glasses, the teeth in gold, the jewels, the clothes of exterminated Jews have been found, but where are the passports of these Jews whether German, French, Italian, or others? Have the Nazis used them to find refuge in Israel under false Jewish names? Schuldhess gives in this respect, with source (Randolph S. Churchill: Und siegten am siebenten Tag, p. 246), the example of the lieutenant SS Ulrich Schönhaft from Königsberg who fled in Israel using the passport of a killed Jew called Habriel Süssmann. How many others did the same?
Historians should find an answer to this question. But what we know is that the State of Israel has adopted immediately after its creation a policy of destruction and of ethnic cleansing with regard to the non-Jews, policy that M. Sharon is determined to follow these days. Thus 385 Palestinian villages have been destroyed. One of them is the famous village of Emmaus mentioned in the Gospel, which has been raised by bulldozers and transformed in a picnic place called Canada Park (photos: http://www.lpj.org/Nonviolence/Sami/Album.html). This policy is not very different of the one adopted by the Nazis. Are we today in the eve of the posthumous victory of Hitler and the Nazi ideology in the Middle East? It is not by chance that the Israeli thinker Leibowitz qualifies Israel a Judeo-nazi State. Sharon himself is aware that he plays this role of Judeo-nazi (see the interview by Amos Oz, Israeli daily Davar, December 17, 1982: http://www.dubaiphotomedia.com/english/voice/interviews/sharonoz.PDF).
In case anyone is thinking, gee, it does seem like there were a lot of German Jews who survived World War II, that is right. German Jews had advance warning of what might happen to them, and most got out in time. Of course, the rest of what he saying is another story.
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