Shooting breaks out at Nativity Church

UK Yahoo News ^ | April 16, 2002 | Reuters

[mdittmar]

The Israelis would NEVER harm the Church.

Bingo!

That is why the scum didn't run to a mosque to try and save their worthless lives.

[A CA Guy]

Do you call it aiding when there are guns pointing at you? I think they are human shields / hostages. IMO

[AppyPappy]

Then they are hostages as far as we know. They allowed armed gunman to take over the "holy" site. For all we know, the armed gunman are destroying it now. Do you think Muslims care a whit about it?

[Steve Eisenberg]

I don't really see much alternative to the Israelis giving in. However, they can't do it before all the rest of Bethlehem has been cleaned of armed Palestinians. For one thing, the Palestinians in the church have stated that they won't leave if Israelis are still in the town.

Whenever the fighters leave the church will be a dangerous time, because their dislike for Christians is only slightly less than their hatred towards the Jews.

[Steve Eisenberg]

That is why the scum didn't run to a mosque to try and save their worthless lives.

Actually they are known to try that also, and with some success. However, there's no one inside a mosque to take as a non-hostage hostage.

[waspguy]

"Do you think Muslims care a whit about it?"

Two points:

1. Not all Palestinians are Muslim. Many are Christian, and have probably worship in the Church of the Nativity. (I don't know about the gunmen obviously.)

2. Many Muslims have a strong devotion to Mary and to the events of the Nativity. The site, without the presence of the church that is already there, would probably have become a Mosque - and as a result of their reverence for Mary and the Birth of Christ, not out of a desire to drive out the Christians, though such action would have such an affect.

[Humidston]

The palestinian terrorist have no concern about Christian places of worship as they routinely desecrated and destroyed them in Lebanon.

Yeah, and as I recall, they blame all their anger at Sharon for daring to step foot near their precious holiest of holy's. I'm sick and tired of their double standard tantrums! They're like baby girls - hiding out in OUR holy church under the skirts of OUR clerics. What hypocrisy!

[history_matters]

When I lived in Bethlehem, Muslims very often came to pray at the Church because they venerate Jesus as a prophet and they venerate his birthplace.

[history_matters]

As Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ says both sides try to outdo each other in Who is the Biggest Victim -- and in the meantime more real victims are created daily.

[mdittmar]

Many Muslims have a strong devotion to Mary and to the events of the Nativity. The site, without the presence of the church that is already there, would probably have become a Mosque - and as a result of their reverence for Mary and the Birth of Christ, not out of a desire to drive out the Christians, though such action would have such an affect.

Kinda reminds me of Jews for Jesus,this would be a small minority of muslims,and I doubt the gunmen belong to that minority.

[ganesha]

Human shield is a better description than hostage. A hostage is being held against their will and desires to escape. A hostage has no interest in protecting the location where they are being held. The priests or monks do not wish to escape but they do want the situation to end peacefully. If they could be guaranteed that there would be a peaceful outcome they might exit the church. However given a choice between remaining in the church under unpleasant conditions and leaving the church and then seeing it destroyed in an apocalyptic gunbattle, they would choose the former.

Israelis acting rationally in their own best interest would never destroy the church. However I am not confident that they are going to be rational. The audio harassment of the church does not inspire confidence, especially considering what happened at Waco.

In a sense it is a trap. If the Israelis either deliberately or unwittingly force a confrontation, and the church is destroyed it would permanently insert an element of anti-semitism into the Christian religion and the celebration of Christmas. Hard core zionists might blame the arabs and continue to support Israel but most of Christendom would react negatively toward Israel and the Jews.

[Lent]

1. Not all Palestinians are Muslim. Many are Christian, and have probably worship in the Church of the Nativity. (I don't know about the gunmen obviously.)

88.9% of palestinians are Sunni Muslim. There is only 2% Christians in the Palestinian Authority.

[ELS]

a discussion about the situation at the Church of the Holy Nativity between Fr. Peter Vasko, OFM and Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ.

I saw the interview on EWTN last week. It was very interesting. My heart goes out to the Christians living in the West Bank and to the religious orders who maintain the holy sites. I would like visit the Holy Land someday, but not under the current conditions, certainly.

[Steve Eisenberg]

Not all Palestinians are Muslim. Many are Christian

The many are fewer and fewer. Used to be Bethlehem was half Christian, now it's 20% and declining. Also used to be that some of the terrorists were Christians (ethnicly; of course not in the sense of "that man is a real Christian"). No longer; I'll bet the fighters in the church are 100% Muslim.

[Revolting cat!]

Reading the post and the rest of the thread I must conclude that we know that we don't know for sure, but I'll be damned if anyone will admit it. After all, there is Reuters, there is FOX News and there is us, convinced that having 500 telebision channels with nothing on them gives us all the knowledge we need and all the rights to jump to quick conclusions. Stockholm Syndrome in Betlehem? The Delphi Technique, anyone?

We know who the scumbags are, so let's give the Franciscan Fathers the benefit of a doubt before we start pointing fingers and whining.

[A CA Guy]

They are hostage but would never say so since after all of this, if they are alive, they will still be living with those people.

[Angelique]

I do however trust the Franciscans, Armenians, and the Greek Orthodox.

I agree with you, but I still think the Israelis could have desrecrated the Church two weeks ago, and I do believe the terrorists fired first.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I agree completely. There are many levels of warfare taking place at this site now.

[Romulus]

Then they are hostages as far as we know.

We are the hostages, and the Holy Places themselves. Israel knows this and proceeds accordingly.

[history_matters]

Thank you for your astute observation.