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1 posted on 04/11/2002 2:15:10 PM PDT by H.R. Gross
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To: JeffHead
Here is a thread discussing what you first stated on the thread about Israel/Palestine.
2 posted on 04/11/2002 2:24:49 PM PDT by UCANSEE2
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To: H.R. Gross
On the other hand, one can say that it is easy for the armed forces to agree that the end doesn't justify the means now that smart bombs and other technological advances in weaponry have supplied new means for discriminating between military and civilian targets.

Ultimately, the use of violence inherently rejects 'civilized' behavior. 'Laws of war' is an oxymoron.

However, when it is in a nation's best interest to abide by customs of war, then it will do so. Making war on civilians instead of on combatants is inefficient (if you're fighting a conventional war - not terrorism from a position of weakness). Attacking a hospital or a school instead of a military target is inefficient. Treating POWs 'properly' provides an incentive for your opponent to do the same.

The better you can focus your war effort on combatants and enemy combat power, the more efficient it will be. The 'laws of war' become a recognition of practices that benefit the attacking nation. Pragmatism rules - at last for the winning side. Thankfully, more accurate weapons have the collateral benefit of reducing collateral damage.
4 posted on 04/11/2002 2:32:58 PM PDT by Gorjus
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To: H.R. Gross
It is hard to tell who is a soldier or a civilian, an adult of a achild, when a 10 year old boy blows up himself and 13 Israeli soldiers. Instead of the three "Rs" they are taught to hate the Jews. Heard the other day...."Peace may have a chance when the Arabs learn to love their own children more than they hate the Jews." Negotiations, more promises not kept, or giving up the occupied lands would be only another step in their long range plan to do away with Israel. There is no solution that will work except to do away with the radical leaders of the PLO.
5 posted on 04/11/2002 2:35:06 PM PDT by bobg
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To: H.R. Gross
I have been wondering the last few days when we might see bombs start going off in Palestinian neighborhoods, the old eye for an eye thing. If the IDF can't stop the suicide bombers I fear that will be the next step.
7 posted on 04/11/2002 2:44:25 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: H.R. Gross
To speak of "innocent civilians" is nothing but pure Horse Sh*t anyway. The only innocents are between 1 and 8 years of age. Anything else is collateral damage. When a civilian works at a factory turning out arms for their country's defense ... they're NOT innocent. When they give aid and comfort to an enemy, they are NOT innocent. WW2 was total war, no well defined boundaries and "No Fire" zones. Being in the military all I can tell you is that in wartime you pay your nickle and take your chances. If you happen to end up a casualty of war, thems the breaks. All the whining about Israel kicking ass on the Palestinians is being done by those who don't have enough spine to fight for their beliefs.

These peaceniks are the next generation of "cattle" who will be the first in line when the dictators start lining people up for the boxcar ride to the extermination camp.

8 posted on 04/11/2002 2:46:18 PM PDT by Colt .45
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To: H.R. Gross
Interesting article — if you read "The New Dealers' War" by Thomas Fleming, it includes a section about the debate surrounding so-called "morale bombing" during WWII. Fleming's contention is that it did not have the intended effect, and in fact delayed the end of the war (coupled with the idea of unconditional surrender, which he regards as one of FDR's worst strategic blunders).
9 posted on 04/11/2002 2:46:41 PM PDT by Polonius
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To: H.R. Gross
Those are not things said out loud in Europe and the United States. But they are tempting thoughts to those who identify strongly with Palestinian frustrations and perhaps even to some who feel that a greater balance of power between Palestinians and Israelis could actually force a settlement.

I must say that the idea of the Palestinians having equal military power with the Israelis is a nightmare to contemplate.  Does anyone think they would have failed to used "the bomb" if they had it?  Whew, this is a chaming thought that this writer must have overlooked to about the same degree he missed the other points in his commentary.

I'm really sick and tired of people trying to spin current Israeli actions as attacks on innocent civilians.  Does anyone think the men holed up with Arafat are innocents?  Does anyone think that those holed up in Bethleham are innocent civilians?  Do they think that all people who are shooting at the Israelis and killed, are simply innocents?

This is a cock and bull pipe dream.  I'm tired of hearing it fronted as fact.

Thanks for the post.

10 posted on 04/11/2002 2:52:45 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: H.R. Gross;Phil V.;Watchmaker;Dark Wing
The United States government decided on June 18, 1945, to commit genocide on the Japanese by spraying their cities with poison gas from the air, starting two weeks before our invasion of Japan, and continuing until resistance ended or all the Japanese were dead, whichever came first. We then moved hundreds of thousands of tons of poison gas to the Pacific to do this.

The A-Bomb was our last-ditch effort to avoid having to do this.

Check out the Autumn 1997 issue of Military History Quarterly for the article by Norman Polmar and Thomas Allen.

You can read a discussion of the implications of our prospective genocide of Japan by going to Google Advanced Groups search at:

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search

and do a search for the "Exact Phrase" A Study of the Possible Use of Toxic Gas in Operation Olympic.

The Emperor of Japan ordered a surrender because he knew we really would kill all of them.

He realized that when he left his palace after our first big fire-bombing raid on Tokyo to inspect the piles of charred, smoking bodies in the streets, and the piles of boiled corpses in what had become totally dry rivers, streams and ponds. A Torch to the Enemy by Martin Caidin.

Japan surrendered because the United States committed deliberate atrocities and war crimes (our fire-bomb and nuclear raids really were that) to shock Japan into surrender. We gave them two alternatives - genocide or surrender. And we posed a credible threat of genocide because we had already started doing that to Japan.

The Japanese gave orders about the same time to commit genocide on all the Allied civilians they could catch in occupied China, the East Indies, etc. IMO they'd have killed several million people a week for months - say 50 million people, about as many as had died in all of World War Two before then. Not counting the 20-30 million Japanese who would have died of gas attack, starvation, disease, napalm and ground fighting during the US invasion.

The Imperial Japanese Army was as evil an institution as the SS, and more lethal.

American fire-bombing attacks on Japan, and nuking of two of its cities, saved at least a 100-150 lives, mostly Chinese but including 20 million plus Japanese, for every Japanese who died in the fireboming and nukes.

So atrocities, war crimes and terror have a place in statecraft. The way to not lose one's moral place is to not start doing those, but when the other side does, finish it, finish it fast, and win.

The United States has known this for a long time - it's in the institutional DNA of our armed forces. From page 510 of The Journal of Military History's April 2002 issue (the current one):

"The Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field, more commonly referred to as General Orders 100, were first issued in 1863 at the height of the Civil War and reissued periodically to American combat forces for the next four decades. ...
...
If the opponent's citizenry, once occupied, continued to resist, ... they broke the compact and became subject to "protective retribution." Moreover, the preservation of the nation was paramount and justified the killing of armed and -- if unavoidable -- unarmed opponents, the destruction of private property, and the devastation of the enemy's countryside in the name of "military necessity."

The Israelis have been too squeamish about this, IMO, because they're, well, Jewish. But they'll get over that and do what they have to in order to win.

13 posted on 04/11/2002 3:12:21 PM PDT by Thud
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To: H.R. Gross
Truman probably went to his grave with self-doubt over what he ordered. The ironic thing is that it saved more lives than it cost. It's obvious that he did the right thing to demonstrate to the fanatics that they had a losing hand.
14 posted on 04/11/2002 3:15:14 PM PDT by Real Cynic No More
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To: H.R. Gross
Attacks on civilians are not P.C" unless performed by PLO or commies. Then it's OK. Everybody got that now?
24 posted on 04/11/2002 4:29:03 PM PDT by Waco
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To: H.R. Gross
BUMP!!!

Happening in Venezuela even as I type this.

26 posted on 04/11/2002 5:17:59 PM PDT by Luis Gonzalez
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To: H.R. Gross
The firebombings of Humburg, Cologne, Dresden, Tokyo, etc. are great tragedies. Hundreds of thousands were killed with no appreciable effect on the war. Except for the use of weapons of mass destruction, strategic bombing cannot win wars.

The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, on the other hand, did bring the war to an end. The did have an appreciable effect on the war and, because they saved countless more lives than were lost, they can even be seen as humanitarian. Not so good if you happened to be in Hiroshima, but very good if you were going to have to attack or defend the invasion beaches in Japan.

Incidently, I don't think nukes would have the same effect today, except possibly in Western countries. Abombs were a surprise. Now people are used to the idea and might not surrender just because you knocked out a city or two.

27 posted on 04/11/2002 5:33:33 PM PDT by Rule of Law
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To: H.R. Gross
They have long considered those raids leading examples of how a well-established moral principle, forbidding direct attacks on civilian populations, collapsed.

It all depends on your historical perspective. As late as Shakespeare's time, putting a city to the sword for forcing one go through the trouble of taking it was acceptable. Genocide as the natural outcome of losing a war goes back to prehistory. Check out the Bible. In fact, there are those who think we h.sapiens are responsible for the deliberate extinction of h.neanderthalis.

Therefore, the real question is not why the distinction between civilians and combatants became so blurred in the second half of the 20th Century. The question should be how and why did Western Civilization manage to maintain this distinction for about 500 years.

31 posted on 04/11/2002 5:46:30 PM PDT by Arleigh
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To: All

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39 posted on 04/11/2002 6:14:14 PM PDT by Bob J
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