Posted on 04/10/2002 2:52:46 AM PDT by Khepry
The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem's besieged Church of the Nativity.
Spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the Vatican was following events "with extreme apprehension" and trying to establish the truth about the fighting that flared early on Monday.
This is an act of indescribable barbarity, a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation
Father David Jaeger
Franciscan spokesman
Israel says its troops are under orders not to fire at holy places and blamed Palestinian militants for a fire near the church, which is revered by Christians as the birthplace of Jesus Christ.
Several hundred Palestinian gunmen and civilians fleeing Israeli tanks have been holed up in the church complex for nearly a week, along with a group of monks and nuns.
A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity".
Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "long-term and incalculable" consequences, Father David Jaeger said.
Christian clerics from Jerusalem were kept by Israel from entering Bethlehem on Monday
Speaking from Rome, he said monks at the church had reported damage to "sacred spaces" and evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church.
The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached "unimaginable and intolerable" levels.
Click here for a guide to the Church of the Nativity
The Israeli army says Palestinian gunmen provoked a fire which broke out near the Church of the Nativity on Monday.
Gunmen had opened fire from a belltower, wounding two Israeli border policemen in a nearby rooftop look-out, an army officer told Reuters news agency.
Palestinian civilians in Bethlehem have to contend with an Israeli curfew
He said the Israelis returned fire and a smoke grenade started the blaze in a second-floor meeting hall overlooking the Basilica of St Catherine, adjacent to the Church of the Nativity.
One Palestinian gunman was shot dead in the battle, the Israeli source said.
But a priest inside the church, Father Amjad Sabbara, told the BBC that the Palestinian killed was a police officer who had been trying to douse the flames.
He said the blaze had burned for an hour, destroying a piano, chairs, altar cloths and ceremonial cups.
Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some were armed, he said, but they were "not using their arms".
The Mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, told the BBC that mosaics inside the Basilica of St Catherine had been "affected by the bullets".
Staying put
The Israeli army has been conducting a major military operation across the West Bank for over a week, in response to a wave of suicide bombings by Palestinian militants.
The army will remain in their place and prevent them [the militants] from evading justice
Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister
"It really involves going through the cities and refugee camps and taking out the infrastructure of the terrorists: weapons, documents, explosive material, laboratories," army spokesman Captain Jacob Dalal told the BBC.
Israeli troops have been using loudspeakers to demand the surrender of the Palestinians inside the Nativity complex.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said on Monday that his soldiers would not "defile the holiness of the site as the [Palestinians] have" but added that the troops would remain in place until the gunmen inside were captured.
In Britain, Foreign Office Minister Ben Bradshaw described Israeli actions in the area as "totally unacceptable".
The Vatican is reported to be working out an agreement with the Israelis on safe passage for the Palestinians inside the church to the Gaza Strip.
Aquinas would definitely back the Israelis over the "pink mist" Palestinians.
I see the infiltration of Satanism into the Church hierarchy, in both the homo/pedophile priest thing, and in the Church's condemnation of Israel as it justly defends itself in what is a very measured response to the utter barbarism of the Palestinians.
Where else have I seen Satanism in the Church?
I have seen an awful lot of pro-socialist comments, like, 'economic justice,' etc., etc., in the past decades, from the US Council of Catholic Bishops, and from Rome.
Why is this so bad?
It's envy, pure and simple. Definitely not Christian. No way, no how.
Especially when you factor in all the genocide, world war, lies, and atheism that comes along with 'social justice.'
Let's face it, the Church is infiltrated with hard-core socialists.
Where else have I seen Satanism in the Church hierarchy?
One obvious example is the utter embrace of the Democratic Party Agenda, by the Bishops and Cardinals of the Church.
Think that one of them would censure ANY Democrat politician for his pro-abortion voting record, or other anti-family policies? Dream on.
Whom does the contemporary Church Bishop or Cardinal think is evil? They usually bash the GOP, corporate America, gun owners, males, whites, and all the usual right-wing suspects.
But I tell you the Church is so obviously on the wrong side of this Nativity Church issue, that it is comical.
It's like condemning a SWAT team for breaking a storefront window, after they had bravely subdued an armed robber, and saved a dozen hostages.
I'm saying, 'Huh?'
How so? What the heck are you talking about? Israel has a lot of killers trapped there. Jew killers and Jihadists are in your holy Church
it is putting me over the impartiality edge.
Is this what it takes?
You're correct, it is THIS church. They wanted to expand Manger Square for the Pope's visit (I think it was in prep for the Millenial visit), when along comes a fringe group of Muslims claiming it is Muslim property and they're going to build a mosque they're instead. A huge one. A compromise was reached and only a small mosque was built. Fr Jaeger decried this decision at the time as extremely misguided, since it showed that a vocal fringe group could use threats to gain political power (not to mention land that wasn't theirs). Wonder what's happened to change his attitude? He's in Rome, not under the point of a gun in the Church of the Nativity. Wish the Vatican would tell him to STFU, he's not helping.
I find it troubling that so many on this thread are confusing the words of David Jaeger with the words of the Pope, which were entirely different. It happened yesterday on a thread about a very similar Reuters article. They quote one sentence of the Pope's, and then print a lot of spew from flaming partisans who are not the official voice of the Vatican (in a deliberate effort to get Christians hopping mad, IMO), and yet all the reader remembers afterward is "Pope" since he was mentioned first. Very skillfully done. I'm sorry so many seem to be falling for it.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html
(EXCERPT)........Counting the Dead Surprisingly, after the massacre, the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's.
The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report. Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.7 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there.8 Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.9
In fact, the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. For example, at 9:30 A.M., about five hours after the fighting started, the Lehi evacuated 40 old men, women and children on trucks and took them to a base in Sheikh Bader. Later, the Arabs were taken to East Jerusalem. Starting at 2:00 P.M., residents were taken out of the village. The trucks passed through the Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim after the Sabbath had begun, so the neighborhood people cursed and spit at them, not because they were Arabs, but because the vehicles were desecrating the Sabbath. Seeing the Arabs in the hands of Jews also helped raise the morale of the people of Jerusalem who were despondent from the setbacks in the fighting to that point.10 Another source says 70 women and children were taken away and turned over to the British.11 If the intent was to massacre the inhabitants, no one would have been evacuated.
That silence from Rome was quite deafening.
Where is the condemnation of pallies raghead suicide bombers, and the rightous anger at such tactics?
Peace, peace, peace, is all that is said and it doesn't mention that the only way the arabs are going to settle for peace is upon the dead body of every Israeli, man, woman and child.
Unitl the church can take a stance that is not pro-arab terrorist, then it needs to be quiet and deal with its own messes.
Maybe God is sending the Pope a message about His anger with the church.
I will take it up with the instuctors when I go back from my homepass.
I didn't hear too many people here on Free Republic saying it's just a building when the goverment intervened with force in Waco. It's a lot more than a building, it is a religious site and in free states such as Israel and the U.S. religious freedom must be respected. The Church doesn't care about the damn building. It wants to preserve peace and it wants it's autonomy within it's own space recognized. An embassy will receive this type of respect- certainly the Catholic Church in the land of Israel deserves it.
If you have only read the media's interpretations of the Pope's and Vatican's statements on the Israel/Palestine situation, then I think their bias has influenced your perception. The secular, mainstream media interprets the Pope's spiritual statements in a political manner which contributes to a misunderstanding of what he means. The actual statement from the Vatican on April 4, 2002, which reiterates the Pope's position. (FYI, you can find more statements from the Vatican Information Service main page.)
I had a similar conversation about this yesterday, so let me link to that conversation. The Pope, following the just war doctrine, definitely believes that Isarel has the right to self-defense. He is not condemning Israel for defending itself.
One might almost think these guys were so PO'd at Israel about the mosque business in 1999 that they've held a grudge or something.
When the suicide bombers started blowing up Israeli supermarkets and children that was a declaration of war. I am with Sherman on this one.
If a war is not won decisively it festers, like a wound. Is it possible to "win" this war? Frankly, I doubt it, but letting war criminals run inside a church and get away because it shakes everyone up is no way to win a war. Are the Israelis barbaric? Probably. They are in a war of survival. Were we barbaric in Afghanistan and Vietnam? I'm sure. What's the alternative, to be beaten by people more barbaric than you? Do you send your soldiers, your children into combat with one hand tied behind their back? No, if my son went to war I would say, "Kill them all, don't let anybody get the advantage of you and come home safe for me and your country.
People keep forgetting the first rule of war is to win. "I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace." - William Tecumseh Sherman
Jews are people of the old testament, but muslims share none of that.
they are better referes to as people of death, for that is what they spread everywhere they go.
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