Posted on 04/10/2002 2:52:46 AM PDT by Khepry
The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem's besieged Church of the Nativity.
Spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the Vatican was following events "with extreme apprehension" and trying to establish the truth about the fighting that flared early on Monday.
This is an act of indescribable barbarity, a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation
Father David Jaeger
Franciscan spokesman
Israel says its troops are under orders not to fire at holy places and blamed Palestinian militants for a fire near the church, which is revered by Christians as the birthplace of Jesus Christ.
Several hundred Palestinian gunmen and civilians fleeing Israeli tanks have been holed up in the church complex for nearly a week, along with a group of monks and nuns.
A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity".
Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "long-term and incalculable" consequences, Father David Jaeger said.
Christian clerics from Jerusalem were kept by Israel from entering Bethlehem on Monday
Speaking from Rome, he said monks at the church had reported damage to "sacred spaces" and evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church.
The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached "unimaginable and intolerable" levels.
Click here for a guide to the Church of the Nativity
The Israeli army says Palestinian gunmen provoked a fire which broke out near the Church of the Nativity on Monday.
Gunmen had opened fire from a belltower, wounding two Israeli border policemen in a nearby rooftop look-out, an army officer told Reuters news agency.
Palestinian civilians in Bethlehem have to contend with an Israeli curfew
He said the Israelis returned fire and a smoke grenade started the blaze in a second-floor meeting hall overlooking the Basilica of St Catherine, adjacent to the Church of the Nativity.
One Palestinian gunman was shot dead in the battle, the Israeli source said.
But a priest inside the church, Father Amjad Sabbara, told the BBC that the Palestinian killed was a police officer who had been trying to douse the flames.
He said the blaze had burned for an hour, destroying a piano, chairs, altar cloths and ceremonial cups.
Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some were armed, he said, but they were "not using their arms".
The Mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, told the BBC that mosaics inside the Basilica of St Catherine had been "affected by the bullets".
Staying put
The Israeli army has been conducting a major military operation across the West Bank for over a week, in response to a wave of suicide bombings by Palestinian militants.
The army will remain in their place and prevent them [the militants] from evading justice
Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister
"It really involves going through the cities and refugee camps and taking out the infrastructure of the terrorists: weapons, documents, explosive material, laboratories," army spokesman Captain Jacob Dalal told the BBC.
Israeli troops have been using loudspeakers to demand the surrender of the Palestinians inside the Nativity complex.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said on Monday that his soldiers would not "defile the holiness of the site as the [Palestinians] have" but added that the troops would remain in place until the gunmen inside were captured.
In Britain, Foreign Office Minister Ben Bradshaw described Israeli actions in the area as "totally unacceptable".
The Vatican is reported to be working out an agreement with the Israelis on safe passage for the Palestinians inside the church to the Gaza Strip.
As for Protestants, we've had our share of idiots and vile reptiles. They get broadcast on televsion and vilified as they should be. However, criticism for the Vatican should be placed where it belongs because they have FAILED their congregations and have helped hide it.
It's time to get it out in the open. Everyday another Priest or Cardinal is being brought forth through the news. It would be nice to see the Church actually do it first. That's what I'm saying!
Please clarify your language. Concretely, what are you referring to with 'recognizing identities' and 'obtuse definitions?'
Trust me, many upon upon many have come to that point of decision, and the weight of all the were familiar with, all that they had know in their life, family, friends, community, all the regular habits of the calendar and their daily comings and goings, even their body's own habits and chemistry -- all were the inertia, the cladding that kept them from making that decision towards knowing G-d the more. Rather all that weight then waits to be shed in the realms beyond, and likely as not to some unimaginably great sadness and aggravation therein.
Yet G-d is execeedingly merciful.
It is your choice. He loves to give you them to make.
Perhaps - but let us remember it was the Palestinian terrorists who forcibly entered the church, armed, and essentially took the staff there hostage. These are many of the same Palestinians who are known by Israeli forces and linked by documents found at Arafat's lair to have aided the recent suicide bombings which have killed hundreds of Israeli citizens.
Let's think realistically here. Do you think ANY american would object if one of the surviving 9-11 terrorists had forcibly entered and was holed up in a NYC church, and we used military force to take him down?
The fact of the matter is, the Israelis did not ask for this war. And they did not ask for the 1967 war which resulted in Islamic land being taken. And they did not ask for the literally hundreds of terrorist and bombing attacks prior to the 1967 war which resulted in the occupied land. The fact of the matter is, the Muslims - and the Palestinian's - desired end state is not a Palestinian nation, but the destruction of Israel. You are naive to believe otherwise.
I think you're right. I have to keep reminding myself that Jews and Muslims, while both people of the Book, are not Christians.
What would Jesus do? We may not know, but we know what He would NOT do.
This is a time for prayer.
That really bothers me. It bothers me that they've been trying to correct it for years. I'm sure the Pope has tried. I have a feeling that the Pope isn't really responsible for half of the statements coming out of the Vatican these days. He's been very ill and I'm wondering whether others are doing it on "his" behalf.
My main beef with the Vatican isn't the millions of Catholics that worship everyday. It's not about Catholicism. It's about what I perceive as a strong condemnation against Israel while they are defending themselves. Yet, their weak response regarding their own Priests. If they can be that strong in outrage over Israel, why not show the same OUTRAGE regarding the Priests and their CRIMINAL behavior. God Bless the victims!
Definition 1: The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem's besieged Church of the Nativity.
Definition 2&3:A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity".
Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "long-term and incalculable" consequences, Father David Jaeger said.
Definition 4: The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached "unimaginable and intolerable" levels.
Now compare that to the illustrious Summi Pontificatus the Vatican seem to have forgotten:
59. Hence, it is the noble prerogative and function of the State to control, aid and direct the private and individual activities of national life that they converge harmoniously towards the common good. That good can neither be
53. Once the authority of God and the sway of His law are denied in this way, the civil authority as an inevitable result tends to attribute to itself that absolute autonomy which belongs exclusively to the Supreme Maker. It puts itself in the place of the Almighty and elevates the State
I believe this is a false dichotomy between personal relationship and community structure. I believe you can have both and in fact must have both.
Trust me, many upon upon many have come to that point of decision, and the weight of all the were familiar with, all that they had know in their life, family, friends, community, all the regular habits of the calendar and their daily comings and goings, even their body's own habits and chemistry -- all were the inertia, the cladding that kept them from making that decision towards knowing G-d the more. Rather all that weight then waits to be shed in the realms beyond, and likely as not to some unimaginably great sadness and aggravation therein.
Yes, there is a bunch of baggage that comes with the Church. This is the case with any community of human beings, any family, any person. The weight of the Church is the weight of history, it must be borne. To discard the history of the Church is to discard ourselves. Faithfulness to God is always faithfulness to truth, and the truth of the people of God is not always pretty. But we must look squarely at that truth if we are to change it. In short,we must know who we are before we can develop a personal relationship. The history is who we are, we do not exist in vacuum. We are the inheritors of great truths and great sins. To serve is to take up the story aware of the past, open to change in the present, and ever hopeful for the future.
So I can ask you in return, how have you grounded your personal relationship? How have you challenged your faith in light of history and reason?
I am not disputing your commitment. I am sure you are very much personally committed. However, if you ask yourself truthfully you will realize many Catholics are personally committed too. Protestants and Catholics should not be questioning each others faithfulness- we should be challenging each other to further cultivate and better their faithfulness.
No, you don't. And that is why you should not jump to assumptions.
Ha ha. I bet this analogy is lost on most people.
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