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Why Are You Pro-Israel
4/1/02 | elisabeth giles

Posted on 04/01/2002 7:31:34 AM PST by ElisabethInCincy

I love this site.I am a christian and huge follower and researcher of Israel and the events going on there..I wanted to know why so many of you on this board are Pro Israel...Its a great thing to coem to this site and see so much support for Israel...

This site is best online to find great fastttttt breaking news..I am news junkie :))))


TOPICS: Israel; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: israel
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Comment #161 Removed by Moderator

To: Jorge
*sigh*

Here is what LostTribe is trying to tell you:

So once again, here is a conversation with Jesus where the term Jews is used for the descendants of Abraham; John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

"said the Jews unto him (Jesus), blah blah blah"

The "Jews" are talking to Jesus. Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, blah blah blah"

The "Jews" are talking to Jesus still. Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe(s) of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews. So, of course, Abraham is the father of the Jews as Abraham is father to the other 10-11 tribes of Israel.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe(s) of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews. So, of course, Abraham is the father of the Jews as Abraham is father to the other 10-11 tribes of Israel.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

The "Jews" are talking to Jesus still. Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe(s) of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews. So, of course, Abraham is the father of the Jews as Abraham is father to the other 10-11 tribes of Israel.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe(s) of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews. So, of course, Abraham is the father of the Jews as Abraham is father to the other 10-11 tribes of Israel.

Get the idea now?

162 posted on 04/28/2002 11:15:37 PM PDT by chantal7
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To: LostTribe
The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to: Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, (Ezekiel 40-45) Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13) Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9) Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).
163 posted on 04/28/2002 11:17:50 PM PDT by College Repub
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To: LostTribe
LOL! Thanks for posting the pictures of that stupid looking dancing chicken....which seems to characterize your inability to address the posts you are responding to.

You are a funny guy.

164 posted on 04/28/2002 11:22:11 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: LostTribe
Well, that sure would make an interesting discussion thread, wouldn't it?

It would certainly bare some fangs. The feral snarls would guarantee a short life with many "Comment Deleted by Moderator" messages. I suspect it would more resemble an unraveled rope.

Would you care to post the initial end knot?

165 posted on 04/28/2002 11:24:08 PM PDT by William Terrell
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To: College Repub
>The man destined to be the Messiah will be a direct descendant of King David (Isaiah 11:1) through the family of Solomon, David's son (1 Chronicles 22:9-l0). He will cause all the world to serve God together (Isaiah 11:2), Amongst the most basic missions that the Messiah will accomplish during his lifetime (Isaiah 42:4) are to: Oversee the rebuilding of Jerusalem, including the Third Temple, (Ezekiel 40-45) Gather the Jewish people from all over the world and bring them home to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 11:12; 27:12-13) Influence every individual of every nation to abandon and be ashamed of their former beliefs (or non-beliefs) and acknowledge and serve only the One True God of Israel (Isaiah 11:9-10; 40:5 and Zephaniah 3:9) Bring about global peace throughout the world (Isaiah 2:4; 11:5-9 and Michah 4:3-4).

OK, lets try that again but in the "lite" version. I'll check out your proof tomorrow when this jet lag has hopefully worn off.

Again, using the definitions you gave in this thread, (1) how will your proposed Messiahs Jewishness differ from Jesus, and (2) how will you know when your man has arrived?

166 posted on 04/28/2002 11:24:28 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: William Terrell
http://torah.freeyellow.com/page35.html There's some detailed information about why Jesus is not in the lineage of David. But I'll paste it here nonetheless:

According to the Jewish Bible, one of the requirements for the messiah is that he must be a descendant of King David. All of the major Messianic prophecies indicate this (Ezekiel 34:23, 37:21-28; Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; and Hosea 3:4-5).

In Jeremiah chapter 33, verse 17, G-d says that the royal House of David will never lack a man to sit on the throne of Israel. The Christian Bible, recognizing this vital requirement, spends almost two chapters to establish the genealogical record of Jesus as going back to King David.

However, when the genealogical records, as recorded by Matthew and Luke are examined, critical problems are revealed.

According to Matthew

In the gospel of Matthew, the genealogy of Joseph, who was the husband of Mary, is traced back to King David. However, Matthew then shoots himself in the foot by claiming that Joseph was never the father of Jesus. He does this in order to establish his claim that Jesus did not have a normal birth. His claim is that Jesus was the product of a miraculous virgin birth; that Mary never had sexual relations with her husband Joseph, and that Jesus was conceived through the "Holy Spirit." Therefore, since the genealogy as recorded in Matthew only traces Joseph back to King David, but never connects Joseph as the father of Jesus, it is clear that Jesus has no established genealogical record going back to King David.

Christian apologists answer that, even though Joseph wasn't the biological father of Jesus, he was the legal father, and, therefore, passed on his genealogical line through adoption.

There are several problems with this answer. First of all, there is no indication from any of the records in the Christian Bible that Joseph actually adopted Jesus. However, even if a case for his adoption could be made, it is absolutely impossible to pass on one's genealogy through adoption.

For example, a priest (Kohain) is someone who is born to another priest. If your father is a priest, then you are a priest. If a priest (Kohain) adopts a boy who is the son of someone who was not a priest, that child does not become a priest through adoption.

An additional problem still remains, even if one would want to conclude that, through adoption the genealogy is adopted as well. We find that when Matthew traces the genealogical line of Joseph back to King David, this line goes through a King named Jeconiah (also known as Coniah or Yehoaikin). The problem arises in Jeremiah, chapter 22, verse 30, when the ancestor of Joseph named King Jeconiah was cursed by G-d:

"Write this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days. For no man of his seed shall prosper sitting upon the throne of David and ruling anymore in Judah."

We see from this passage in Jeremiah that any descendant of Jeconiah would be disqualified from ever being a Messianic candidate; and therefore, if Christians insist upon making Jesus the legal adopted child of Joseph, then it is obvious that Jesus would be disqualified from even potentially being the messiah.

According to Luke In order to answer this difficult problem, Christian apologists claim that Jesus also traces himself back to King David through his mother, Mary. This claim is made relative to the genealogy recorded in the third chapter of the book of Luke, which is also traced back to King David.

There are also a number of problems with this claim. First and foremost, there is no evidence at all that the genealogy listed in Luke is that of Mary. The chapter clearly says that this is the genealogy of Joseph. Mary isn't even mentioned. In an article written by Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and circulated by "Jews for Jesus," the author makes the following claim:

"In the Greek text of Luke's genealogy, every single name mentioned has the Greek definite article 'the' with one exception: the name of Joseph (Luke 3:23). Someone reading the original would understand by the missing definite article from Joseph's name that this was not really Joseph's genealogy, but his wife Miriam's (Mary)."

David L. Blank, Professor of Classic Languages at The University of California-Los Angeles, made the following observations about the above comments:

"According to the Greek original, Eli is indeed the father of Joseph. There is a definite article before each name, except that of Joseph, and that definite article is in each case the masculine genitive singular article -- you. Not only does this not clearly indicate that Joseph is skipped in the genealogy, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination be taken as so indicated. The author's comments on the Greek grammar of the passage are absurd and manifest an appalling ignorance of the facts of Greek syntax."

Other Greek scholars agree with Professor Blank.

And, even if Mary could trace herself back to King David, it still wouldn't help Jesus. According to the Torah, the mother (the matrilineal) determines if someone is Jewish (Deuteronomy 7:3-4), but tribal affiliation and family genealogy can only be traced through the person's father (the patrilineal in accordance with Exodus 28:4, 29:9-30, 30:30, and 40:15 [Priesthood Lineage]; Numbers 36 [Tribal Lineage]; Genesis 49:10, I Kings 11:4, and I Chronicles 17:11-19 [Kingship Lineage].).

For instance, in Numbers, chapter 1, verse 18, we're told that the Jewish people declare their pedigrees according to their fathers' houses. When Queen Athaliah wanted to eliminate the Royal Line of David, she only killed the males knowing full well that a female descendant of David couldn't pass on the right to the throne (II Kings 11; II Chronicles 22).

The fact that the daughters of Zelophchad inherited their father's property (Numbers 27) doesn't prove that genealogy can be passed through the daughters. This is born out by Numbers 36, where they are told that they must marry someone from their father's tribe, otherwise the inheritance would pass out of their family.

Finally, a Third problem presents itself. Even if it could be maintained that a family line could be passed on through the mother, Mary herself was not from a legitimate messianic family. According to the Bible, the messiah must be a descendant of King David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:12-13; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:10, 28:4-7).

It's glaring that in the book of Matthew, the genealogy of Joseph is traced back to King David through his son Solomon, but ultimately down to the cursed King Jeconiah. However, in the book of Luke, the genealogy goes from David, not through his son Solomon, but through his son Nathan. The problem is that even if one wants to maintain that the book of Luke is tracing the genealogy of Mary and that it's possible to pass on genealogical lineage through the mother, Mary would still not be of help to Jesus, because her line does not go back to David through the King's son, Solomon.

According to G-d

Jesus failed to fulfill any of the major messianic prophecies; he was never anointed as King, he never ruled Israel, and the world was certainly not perfected in his time. In addition, he was not preceded by the return of the prophet Elijah (Malachi 4:5). Finally, he was disqualified from ever being a messianic candidate due to his lack of the necessary family background.

The Jewish people never rejected Jesus. He just never measured up to the description that God gave to the Jewish people, of who the messiah would be.

You are confronted with a choice: you can believe what G-d said when he promised the Jewish people a messiah from the House of David through Solomon his son, or you can decide that G-d was lying when He made these vital promises.

We aren't talking about a crisis in faith, but, rather, a search for the truth.

Do you have the courage to make that search?

167 posted on 04/28/2002 11:24:35 PM PDT by College Repub
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To: William Terrell
>Would you care to post the initial end knot?

No, but maybe the final end knot. In any case, knot tonight.

168 posted on 04/28/2002 11:26:21 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Well let's see, Jesus didn't rebuild the temple, bring in an era of world peace, or cause eveyrone around the world to realize the one true G-d. He didn't do any of these period, and certainly not during his lifetime.
169 posted on 04/28/2002 11:26:59 PM PDT by College Repub
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To: LostTribe
You can dance around the subject all you want, but if you refuse to read and learn, misinformation will continue to be a part of your life, and you will never progress beyond self-serving myths and supersitions.

The Bible is "self-serving myths and supersitions"?? What nonsense.

I posted the words of Christ, the disciples and the authors to the New Testament who refered to all descendants of Abraham as Jews...but since you cannot refute their words...you post these juvenile insults.
Seek professional help.

170 posted on 04/28/2002 11:28:39 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: College Repub
I will check out your (very detailed) references tomorrow, but am now just looking for a simple answer which follows up our discussion of Jewishness comparing Jesus with your man in the sky.

Will your man have both an earthly father and mother who are both from the Davidic line?

171 posted on 04/28/2002 11:33:33 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: cardinal4
Thank you.
172 posted on 04/28/2002 11:38:45 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: LostTribe
Definently the father, and perhaps the mother. I'm not a biblical scholar and what I pasted above was not my work, just for the record. I just wanted to correct you on that one post you made above talking about how Jesus was in the line of David.
And yes, there are ways to know nowadays who is in David's line.
173 posted on 04/28/2002 11:39:58 PM PDT by College Repub
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To: College Repub
>Definently the father, and perhaps the mother.

OK, then this automatically excludes your man from being descended directly from God even though He says He will send His Son to do the job. Got it.

Gotta hit the sack here. Have a good week!

174 posted on 04/28/2002 11:46:40 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
You're confused. You are mixing the Christian idea of what the messiah is (developed after the Jewish one and subsequently used to Justify Jesus as the messiah). The messiah will not be the son of God, but rather a mere human. He will be a Jewish leader that's spiritualy closer to God than other humans, but still a mere human, meeting all the other things as listed above.
175 posted on 04/28/2002 11:51:29 PM PDT by College Repub
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To: College Repub
Well, for one thing, no one knows of what bloodline Mary was. So she could have been in David's line, where bloodline mattered, contributing actual genetic material to the child. So you can decidedly not say with any certainty that Jesus was not of David's bloodline.

You said that being a Israelite/Hebrew was passed down through the mother and the tribe affiliation was passed through the father. Mary was undoubtedly an Israelite/Hebrew. So Jesus was an Israelite/Hebrew. So to be of the tribe of Judah, and a Jew, would be determined by the tribe of Joseph and since this would be a legal designation only, representing many bloodlines as a tribe, Jesus would be a Jew.

176 posted on 04/29/2002 12:01:05 AM PDT by William Terrell
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To: chantal7
*sigh*

Here is what LostTribe is trying to tell you:

Thank you for trying to clarify the point LostTribe was unable to articulate himself.

So once again, here is a conversation with Jesus where the term Jews is used for the descendants of Abraham; John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

"said the Jews unto him (Jesus), blah blah blah"

The "Jews" are talking to Jesus. Not claiming that all Israelites and Hebrews are Jews. Abraham is the grandfather of Jacob, Father of the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of Israel. Only the tribe of Judah and maybe Levi were called Jews.

SO WHAT?
Who cares what the term Jews signified in the beginning in the OT?
It began to signify anybody of the Hebrew race who returned from captivity...and eventually came to mean all who were of Hebrew descent, and all descendants of Abraham.

This is how the term Jew is used throughout the Gospel.

What cracks me up is how this entire disagreement began with LostTribe challanging another poster's claim that the Jews were God's people.....and now your argument is reduced to claiming that...oh well only SOME Jews are God's people.

And then you go on to splitting hairs with a bunch of meaningless convoluted nonsense which defies any logical interpretation of NT references to Jews.

What a hollow argument.

I repeat. The Jews are God's covenant people.

177 posted on 04/29/2002 12:02:33 AM PDT by Jorge
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To: William Terrell
Sure I can! Jesus was not of david's bloodline becuase he did not have a father that was.
178 posted on 04/29/2002 12:02:59 AM PDT by College Repub
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To: College Repub
Sure I can! Jesus was not of david's bloodline becuase he did not have a father that was.

But you said that only the tribe is determined by the father. A bloodline is genetic material passed down generation to generation. Do you know for certain that Mary was not of the bloodline of David?

179 posted on 04/29/2002 12:26:08 AM PDT by William Terrell
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To: College Repub
The Lineage Loophole
180 posted on 04/29/2002 12:27:03 AM PDT by Oregon W.oman
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