Montana Minister visits Kosovo says Media (and Clinton)lie

I don't think that it made much difference (re. explaining), but always worth trying. If s/he thinks that (a) I am 'rabid' (b) a defender of 'genocide' and (c) that women breaking national laws in direct suffragette action 100 years ago is comparable to the world's most powerful military alliance terrorising civilians in a non-threatening country... it sort of signifies that you're bashing your head against a brick wall.

81 posted on 04/02/2002 7:48:31 AM PST by Kate22

Thanks for #73. It would take me an hour to write something like that. We haven't had anybody that interesting since Fusion appeared on the FR.

82 posted on 04/02/2002 7:54:14 AM PST by Leonora

Thanks for taking the time to try to educate someone who refuses to be educated. Still, your very informative post and the subsequent drivel in reply serves to remind us how deeply some people have been brainwashed by the mainstream press and the psy-ops operators such as the two Jamies - Shea and Rubin.

83 posted on 04/02/2002 9:15:13 AM PST by JMS

Psst -- Lest I get a reputation as a mad Fenian let me just state that any Anglophobic-sounding comments posted under the nom de Freep "Gael" are for rhetorical purposes only and do not necessarily represent the views of our sponsor. It's just that, sometimes, Col. Blimps make such inviting targets and who am I to say "no" to temptation.

Overdue thanks for posting those OSCE observer comments on the other thread. There were a number that I had not seen before.

84 posted on 04/02/2002 9:29:29 AM PST by Gael

Hehe - I don't mind, honest. The smug 'we are superior and need to teach the world a thing or two' bunch rile me as well. It always seems worse in a British accent when purred 'a la Pantsdown' than in an American accent, but it's pretty insipid whoever spouts it.

85 posted on 04/02/2002 11:08:26 AM PST by Kate22

86 posted on 04/02/2002 3:12:45 PM PST by getoffmylawn

Bill Clintoon and Madeline Nobright have blood on their hands.

87 posted on 04/02/2002 3:14:59 PM PST by Saundra Duffy

To: Kate22;vooch;gael;great dane;leonora;JMS;getoffmylawn;saundraduffy

Go to the international war crimes tribinal site, read the indictments, read the guilty pleas, read the judgements.

Indictments and proceedings

People like you are resposible for the deaths, torture, and rape of many, you who chose to turn a blind eye, to wash your hands, just as those who ignored and denied the holocaust.

You are responsible because you did nothing and encouraged others to do nothing.

88 posted on 04/02/2002 7:22:48 PM PST by ABrit

To: Kate22;vooch;gael;great dane;leonora;JMS;getoffmylawn;saundraduffy

Lest we forget

GENEVA (CNN) -- The U.N. refugee agency said Friday the mass exodus of ethnic Albanian refugees from Kosovo has reached "nightmare proportions," as thousands of people kept crossing into Albania, Macedonia and the Yugoslav province of Montenegro.

"The situation is absolutely dramatic, it's reaching nightmare proportions," said Judith Kumin, spokeswoman of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees.

The UNHCR estimated that, over the past 10 days, more than 220,000 people have fled or have been expelled from the Serb province.

Thousands of refugees were transported to the Macedonian border by train or were put aboard buses and driven close to the Albanian border and then made to walk.

Some refugees told CNN correspondents they had been walking for days, with no possessions except what they could carry with them or put on a tractor-pulled carts.

The European Union's humanitarian affairs commissioner Emma Bonino, who visited the region to coordinate aid efforts, expressed shock at the "mass deportations."

"We are faced with mass deportations. These pictures of trains arriving...they are pictures straight out of 'Schindler's List'," she told a news conference in Brussels Wednesday.

Bonino also said that, "all the witness reports we do receive suggest that there are massacres going on, that people are being eliminated, that there is ethnic cleansing going on."

Yugoslav government denies massacres

The Yugoslav government of President Slobodan Milosevic has denied these allegations, saying the ethnic Albanian refugees are fleeing the fighting between government troops and the Kosovo Liberation Army, or are killed in cross fire.

According to the UNHCR, at least 120,000 refugees have fled to Albania, 70,000 to Macedonia and 31,000 to Montenegro.


Thousands of refugees have fled to Macedonia

The Albanian government on Friday described the situation at the main border crossing of Morina and the main reception center in Kukes as dramatic.

"In Kukes district, the situation has become absolutely critical," Information Minister Musa Ulqini said on television.

"During the night and up to now, the influx of Albanians in need of help arriving from Kosovo has been extraordinary. The situation is rapidly getting worse," Ulqini said.

Prime Minister Pandeli Majko is in contact with other countries, urging that a relief operation launched several days ago be accelerated.

Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro are among the poorest regions in Europe and have all repeatedly appealed for international aid.

CNN Correspondent Chris Burns reported Friday that thousands more refugees had crossed the border at the Morina crossing in the past hours.

Passports reportedly burned

Just across the border, blue smoke from a fire could be seen. Refugees said that this fire was the Serb authorities burning passports and identity documents that had been confiscated from ethnic Albanian refugees.

One refugee told CNN he was forced to leave his two sons behind, and a woman said she saw her sons shot and killed by Yugoslav troops.

The UNHCR said two women and two children died on arrival at another crossing point into Albania. The organization said the deaths were likely caused by exhaustion and exposure.

At Morina, nuns were handing loaves of bread to the refugees as they came across the crossing point.

The UNHCR said it and other aid agencies were distributing blankets, bread, water and juice to the masses at the Macedonian border during the night.

Thousands of refugee gathered in the Macedonian village of Blace, next to the border post, waiting for help, trying to understand what had happened to them, and where to go from here.

A total of seven trains have arrived in Blace from the Kosovo capital of Pristina in the past days, according to the UNHCR. It said one train was made up of 30 cars, packed with thousands of people who were made to walk the last few miles across the border.

While international aid is being flown in from all over the world, aid operations and their coordination will be further addressed at two international meetings involving several European nations and all major humanitarian aid organizations next week.

89 posted on 04/02/2002 8:54:08 PM PST by ABrit

I see, because we don't agree with you we're all guilty of rape and torture. As we can see from the Milosevic trial witnesses come forward with statements to the effect that "well, everyone knows..." or "I didn't see it myself but I was told..." type statements. There's a famous saying in New York, another site of Muslim terrorism, that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. The fact that your precious international court issues sealed indictments and has standards of evidence and procedures so far from English Common Law, much less American standards of jurisprudence shows that you have no interest in justice. Rather, you're merely trying to blindly support what you've heard in the media without engaging in any critical thinking.

As for your statements regarding Draza Mihailovic and Yugoslavia as a communist country I would recommend a book called "The Rape of Serbia: The British Role in Tito's Grab for Power 1943-1944" by Michael Lees, a British Special Forces Officer who served in the Balkans during WWII. I would also suggest you view "Yugoslavia, the Avoidable War" for an objective look at the propaganda war against Yugoslavia that led to a drastic escalation of the breakup of Yugoslavia.

You have previously mentioned that the constituent republics of Yugoslavia voted to secede and therefore since this is what they wanted they were justified in simply breaking away. It's very interesting that you don't say anything about Serbs having the same rights in Bosnia-Hercegovina and Croatia where Serbs who are still alive have experienced genocide being practiced against them. If you had done a bit of research you would find that the Yugoslav constitution had provisions for secession but rather than follow them Croatia and Slovenia unilateraly declared independence, assured of Germany's support. Not only would Serbs in Croatia and later Bosnia-Hercegovina be cut off from Yugoslavia with no say in the matter, Yugoslavia, consisting of only Serbia and Montenegro, as B-H and Macedonia seceded, would have been stuck with the debts of ALL the constituent republics.

You can continue to insist on presenting the comic book view of history but you'll have to present something more credible than international court indictments.

90 posted on 04/02/2002 9:10:29 PM PST by JMS

CNN has thoroughly been discredited as a source. You may recall that some of their "interns" were US military psy-ops personnel. Also, their chief foreign correspondent, Christiane Amanpour is married to Jamie Rubin a close friend of Hashim Thaci who bragged that he was in daily contact with Thaci throughout the bombing of Yugoslavia. Regarding people fleeing a war zone, you might want to ask yourself why many Albanians also fled to Serbia and why there were no incidents of Serbs rounding up ethnic Albanians in Belgrade. Don't you think it's at all possible that people were leaving Kosovo because NATO was bombing it?

91 posted on 04/02/2002 9:16:16 PM PST by JMS

You haven't read any of the records of the decided cases, have you? I suppose you don't want to know the awfull truth.

This court is run by the United Nations, and is as impartial as you will get in this world. ICTY Key Figures


Update: 15 March 2002	Not an official document

ORIGIN:

The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) was established by Security Council resolution 827. This resolution was passed on 25 May 1993 in the face of the serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991, and as a response to the threat to international peace and security posed by those serious violations.

SEAT:

The ICTY is located in The Hague, The Netherlands.

OBJECTIVES:

In harmony with the purpose of its founding resolution, the ICTY's mission is fourfold:

to bring to justice persons allegedly responsible for violations of international humanitarian law

to render justice to the victims

to deter further crimes

to contribute to the restoration of peace by promoting reconciliation in the former Yugoslavia.

JURISDICTION:

1. Subject-matter :
The Tribunal’s authority is to prosecute and try four clusters of offences:

Grave breaches of the 1949 Geneva Conventions.
Violations of the laws or customs of war.
Genocide.
Crimes against humanity.

2. Geographic and Temporal:
Any of the crimes as above listed, committed on the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991.

3. Personal :
Only over natural persons and not over organisations, political parties, administrative entities or other legal subjects.

Vis-à-vis national courts
The ICTY and national courts have concurrent jurisdiction over serious violations of international humanitarian law committed in the former Yugoslavia. However, the ICTY can claim primacy over national courts, and may take over national investigations and proceedings at any stage if this proves to be in the interest of international justice.

CHAMBERS:

The Chambers consist of 16 permanent judges and a maximum at any one time of nine ad litem judges.

The 16 permanent judges are elected by the General Assembly of the United Nations for a term of four years. They can be re-elected.

The ad litem judges are drawn from a pool of 27 judges. They are also elected by the General Assembly of the United Nations for a term of four years, but they are not eligible for re-election. An ad litem judge can only serve at the ICTY following his/her appointment by the Secretary-General on the recommendation of the President of the Tribunal in order to sit on one or several specific trials for a period of up to three years.

The judges are divided between three Trial Chambers and one Appeals Chamber. Each Trial Chamber consists of three permanent judges and a maximum, at any one time, of six ad litem judges. A Trial Chamber may be divided into mixed sections of three judges (one permanent and two ad litem, or two permanent and one ad litem). Each Trial Chamber can be comprised of up to three sections. The Appeals Chamber consists of seven permanent judges: five from the permanent judges of the ICTY, and two from the 11 permanent judges of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR). These seven judges also constitute the Appeals Chamber of the ICTR. Each appeal is heard and decided by five judges.

The judges represent the main legal systems in the world and bring to the Tribunal a variety of legal expertise. The judges hear testimony and legal arguments, decide on the innocence or the guilt of the accused and pass sentence.

The permanent judges also have important regulatory functions: they draft and adopt the legal instruments regulating the functioning of the ICTY, such as the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

President: Claude Jorda (France)
Vice-President: Mohamed Shahabuddeen (Guyana)

Presiding Judges:
Richard George May (United Kingdom)
Wolfgang Schomburg (Germany)
Liu Daqun (China)

Judges:
Florence Ndepele Mwachande Mumba (Zambia)
David Anthony Hunt (Australia)
Patrick Lipton Robinson (Jamaica)
Mehmet Güney (Turkey)
Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana (Sri Lanka)
Fausto Pocar (Italy)
Theodor Meron (United States of America)
Amin El Mahdi (Egypt)
Carmel A.Agius (Malta)
Alphonsus Martinus Maria Orie (Netherlands)
O-gon Kwon (Korea)

Ad Litem Judges:
Amarjeet Singh (Singapore)
Maureen Harding Clark (Ireland)
Ivana Janu (Czech Republic)
Chikako Taya (Japan)
Fatoumata Diarra (Mali)
Sharon A. Williams (Canada)
Rafael Nieto-Navia (Colombia)

(Please note that pursuant to Rule 27(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the President may at any time temporarily assign a member of a Trial Chamber to another Chamber.)

ASSIGNMENT OF CHAMBERS:	JUDGES	CASES
Trial Chamber I	Liu Daqun (Presiding) Amin El Mahdi Alphons Orie	Rahim ADEMI (IT-01-46) Pavle STRUGAR and Miodrag JOKIC (IT-01-42) Pasko LJUBICIC (IT-00-41)
Section A	Liu Daqun (Presiding) Maureen Harding Clark Fatoumata Diarra	Mladen NALETILIC and Vinko MARTINOVIC (IT-98-34)
Section B	Alphons Orie (Presiding) Amin El Mahdi Rafael Nieto-Navia	Stanislav GALIC (IT-98-29):

Trial Chamber II For all new cases	Wolfgang Schomburg (Presiding) Florence Mumba Carmel A. Agius (also pre-trial judge)	Dragan NIKOLIC (IT-94-2) Vidoje BLAGOJEVIC, Dragan OBRENOVIC and Dragan JOKIC (IT-02-53) Enver HADZIHASANOVIC, Mehmed ALAGIC and Amir KUBURA (IT-01-47) Radoslav BRDANIN and Milomir TALIC (IT-99-36) Milomir STAKIC (IT-97-24) Transfer from Trial Chamber I to Trial Chamber II
	David Hunt(Presiding) Florence Mumba Liu Daqun	Milorad Krnojelac (IT-97-25)
Section A	David Hunt(Presiding) Ivana Janu Chikako Taya Carmel A. Agius(Presiding) Ivana Janu Chikako Taya	Mitar Vasiljevic (IT-98-32) Radoslav BRDJANIN and Milomir TALIC (IT-99-36)
Section B	Florence Mumba(Presiding) Amarjeet Singh Sharon Williams	Blagoje Simic, Milan Simic, Miroslav Tadic, Simo Zaric (IT-95-9)

Trial Chamber III
For all new cases

Richard May(Presiding)
Patrick Robinson
O-Gon Kwon

Nenad BANOVIC and Predrag BANOVIC (IT-95-8/1)

Slobodan MILOSEVIC ("Kosovo", "Croatia" and "Bosnia") (IT-02-54)

Momcilo KRAJISNIK and Biljana PLAVSIC (IT-00-39 & 40)

Sefer HALILOVIC (IT-01-48)

Appeals Chamber Claude Jorda (Presiding) Mohamed Shahabuddeen David Hunt Mehmet Güney Asoko de Zoysa Gunawardana Fausto Pocar Theodor Meron	Claude Jorda (Presiding) Mohamed Shahabuddeen Mehmet Güney Wolfgang Schomburg Theodor Meron	Dragoljub KUNARAC, Radomir KOVAC and Zoran VUKOVIC (IT-96-23 & 23/1-A)
	David Hunt (Presiding) Mehmet Güney Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana Fausto Pocar Theodor Meron	Tihomir BLASKIC (IT-95-14-A) Dario KORDIC and Mario CERKEZ (IT-95-14/2-A)
	David Hunt (Presiding) Mohamed Shahabuddeen Mehmet Güney Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana Fausto Pocar	Radislav KRSTIC (IT-98-33-A)
	Claude Jorda (Presiding) Mehmet Güney Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana Fausto Pocar Liu Daqun	Dusko Tadic (IT-94-1-R)
	Mohamed Shahabuddeen (Presiding) David Hunt Mehmet Güney Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana Theodor Meron	Miroslav KVOCKA, Milojica KOS, Mladjo RADIC, Zoran ZIGIC and Dragoljub PRCAC (IT-98-30/1-A)
	Mohamed Shahabuddeen (Presiding) Fausto Pocar Mehmet Güney Asoka de Zoysa Gunawardana Theodor Meron	Goran JELISIC (IT-95-10-R)

OFFICE OF THE PROSECUTOR:

The Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) operates independently of the Security Council, of any State or international organisation and of the other organs of the ICTY.

Its members are experienced police officers, crime experts, analysts, lawyers and trial attorneys.

The OTP conducts investigations (by collecting evidence, identifying witnesses, exhuming mass graves), prepares indictments and presents prosecutions before the judges of the Tribunal.

Chief Prosecutor: Carla Del Ponte (Switzerland), since 15 September 1999.

Deputy Prosecutor: Graham Blewitt (Australia), since 15 February 1994.

REGISTRY:

The Registry is responsible for the administration and judicial support services of the Tribunal, including the translation of documents and the interpretation of court proceedings.

The Registry's judicial responsibilities cover the organisation of the hearings, the legal filings and archives, the operation of the legal aid programme for indigent defendants, the provision of assistance and protection to witnesses, and the management of the Detention Unit.

Together with the President, the Registrar carries out diplomatic functions. The Registrar is also in charge of all communications to and from the Tribunal.

Registrar: Hans Holthuis (Netherlands), since 1 January 2001.
Deputy Registrar: Bruno Cathala (France), since 18 May 2001.

PROCEEDINGS:

Investigations are initiated by the Prosecutor at her own discretion or on the basis of information received from individuals, governments, international organisations or non-governmental organisations.

Indictments must be confirmed by a judge prior to becoming effective.

The trial commences only once the accused is physically present before the Tribunal. At the initial appearance of the accused, the Trial Chamber asks the accused to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.

The conduct of the trial draws on both the civil law and common law systems: elements of the adversarial and inquisitorial procedures are combined.

The Rules of Procedure and Evidence guarantee that ICTY proceedings adhere to internationally recognised principles of fair trial. As an important guarantee of a fair trial, the legal aid programme provides counsel for indigent defendants at the expense of the Tribunal. Other important elements include the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried without undue delay, the right to examine adverse witnesses and the right of appeal.

Procedural provisions for the protection of witnesses' identities and the actual assistance provided before, during and after the proceedings by the Victims and Witnesses Section within the Registry ensure that witnesses can testify freely and safely.

CUSTODY AND SENTENCES :

Following their arrest and until the completion of the proceedings, the accused are held in the ICTY Detention Unit which is located in The Hague and managed by the Registry.

The maximum sentence that can be imposed on an accused is life imprisonment.

Sentences are served in one of the States that have signed an agreement with the United Nations to accept persons convicted by the ICTY.

COOPERATION WITH THE ICTY :

Although judicially independent, the ICTY must rely on international cooperation in order to successfully carry out its mandate. Cooperation by States or international organisations is vital to the collection of evidence, as well as to the detention and transfer of accused persons. States also offer indispensable cooperation in the relocation of sensitive witnesses or the enforcement of sentences handed down by the Tribunal. Additionally, States can contribute personnel or financial resources through the Tribunal's Trust Fund.

DEVELOPMENT :

Since its inception, the Tribunal has become a fully operational legal institution rendering judgements and setting important precedents of international criminal and humanitarian law. Many legal issues now adjudicated by the Tribunal have never actually been adjudicated or have lain dormant since the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials.
Examples of important legal decisions made by the ICTY include clarifications of the application of the Geneva Conventions, the further development of the command responsibility doctrine, and the interpretation of rape as a form of torture and a crime against humanity.

ICTY PERSONNEL:

As of September 2001: 1188 staff members from 77 countries.

REGULAR BUDGET:

1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001
$276,000	$10,800,000	$25,300,000	$35,430,622	$48,587,000	$64,775,300	$94,103,800	$95,942,600	$96,443,900

92 posted on 04/02/2002 10:13:15 PM PST by ABrit

Of course the UN is truly impartial by admitting Croatia, Bosnia-Hercegovina and Slovenia, countries formed in violation of the Helsinki accords, while at the same time making Yugoslavia re-apply for admission. We can see how impartial the UN is by looking at the recent UN conference on racism.

Your faith in the UN court is touching, especially when it categorically refused to investigate NATO's actions in attacking Yugoslavia in contravention of international law and NATO's own charter. Rather than accepting the awful truth of being manipulated by CNN and their ilk you rely on the trappings of the kangaroo court known as the ICTY which itself was not formed according to the UN's own rules.

94 posted on 04/02/2002 11:03:15 PM PST by JMS

What the hell is a "Kosovar"?

95 posted on 04/03/2002 12:44:54 AM PST by Banat

You've got it all wrong.
The correct analogy would be:

AMERICA = SERBIA; AMERICANS = SERBS
"KOSOVA" = AZTLAN; "KOSOVARS" = SEPARATIST HISPANICS

Nobody has the right to destroy anyone's country. Serbia is the home of the Serbs. Albania is the home of the Albanians. If they don't like it in Serbia (Kosovo & Metohia) they are free to go wherever they want.

96 posted on 04/03/2002 12:54:24 AM PST by Banat

To: ABrit; JMS; SANDNES; Banat

A'Brit' - You have completely blown any credibility by your outburst accusing anyone of questioning Nato's attack on Serbia as being a 'denier of the holocaust' etc.

Some basic considerations for you:
Even for those who do take the ICTY seriously (Tony Blaaair, Hashim Thaci, Del Ponte and yourself) indictees are not presumed guilty before their trial (by the way, there will be plenty of KLA 'fighters' on their way there soon as a result of the recent moves in Belgrade);
For such a 'humanitarian' why have you not mentioned a word about the millions of people to have suffered as a result of Nato's actions and the KLA? Not just Serbians (who you seem to class as non-human), but also Albanians, Roma, Jews, Turks, Egyptians...;
As Banat asked: what exactly is a 'Kosovar'? Don't you mean a 'Kosovarian'?!

"People like you are resposible for the deaths, torture, and rape of many, you who chose to turn a blind eye, to wash your hands, just as those who ignored and denied the holocaust."

Very big accusations for a little person to make. I would love for you to say such a thing to my face. Is that the best that you can do in the way of 'argument'? New Labour type accusations? It doesn't work against facts, especially nowadays.

Why do you have such an interest in Albanian independence, A'Brit'? I meet British people with whom I dispute what happened in Kosovo to one extent or another, but none of them are still following the 1999 spin. (And none of them would have spoken so glibly about Britain and England.)

By the way, when you redirect people to the ICTY as 'evidence' of what happened make sure of your facts. The charge of genocide in Kosovo was disproved by the UN and removed from the Milosevic indictment. Just another hysterical tabloid piece of sensationalism.

97 posted on 04/03/2002 4:21:10 AM PST by Kate22

He definetly has more than passing interest in all this. I doubt he is of British origin. Most probably Albanian with British passport, or of Albaninan heritage.

I don't mind him being Albanian and defending his position, but why is he trying to decieve us by being a Brit?

98 posted on 04/03/2002 5:56:51 AM PST by Leonora

I'll see your Hague show trials and raise you eighteen Moscows.

Moscow Trials 1936, Court Proceedings, Content



Please note: All files marked with a copyright notice are subject to normal copyright restrictions. These files may, however, be downloaded for personal use. Electronically distributed texts may easily be corrupted, deliberately or by technical causes. When you base other works on such texts, double-check with a printed source if possible.

REPORT OF COURT PROCEEDINGS
THE CASE OF THE

TROTSKYITE-ZINOVIEVITE
TERRORIST CENTRE

Heard Before the
MILITARY COLLEGIUM OF THE
SUPREME COURT OF THE U.S.S.R.
Moscow, August 19-24, 1936

In re
G.E. Zinoviev, L.B.Kamenev, G.E. Evdokimov,
I.N. Smirnov, I.P. Bakayev, V.A. Ter-Vaganyan,
S.V. Mrachkovsky, E.A. Dreitzer, E.S. Holtzman,
I.I. Reingold, R.V. Pickel, V.P. Olberg, K.B.
Berman-Yurin, Fritz David (I.I. Kruglyansky),
M. Lurye and N. Lurye

Charged under Articles 58⁸, 19 and 58⁸, 58¹¹
of the Criminal Code of the R.S.F.S.R.

Published by the
PEOPLE'S COMMISSARIAT OF JUSTICE OF THE U.S.S.R.
MOSCOW 1936

Contents