Montana Minister visits Kosovo says Media (and Clinton)lie - Interview from 1998

Center for Peace in the Balkans ^ | Nov. 23, 1998 | Bill Dorich

[vooch]

Back Phoney Refugee Camps Found in Kosovo By William Dorich Note: Rev. Bigler made numerous attempts to meet with Albanian officials in Kosovo but Albanians thwarted these attempts. He took video footage of his entire visit and numerous photographs. November 23, 1998-The week before NATO was prepared to bomb the Kosovo Serbs, I had a lengthy conversation with Rev. Robert Bigler, a pastor of the First Presbyterian church of Butte, Montana. He had read some of my recent articles about Kosovo including my attack against Pastor Craig Barnes, National President of the Presbyterian Church who used their Washington DC cathedral for a Bosnian Task Force Symposium on December 6th, 1997, in which Serbs were ostracized and vilified from inside the sanctuary of this Christian church. That presentation was nationally televised on C-Span. "The truth," said Rev. Bigler, "seems to be going down a black hole-just like it did in Vietnam." At the beginning of my interview, Pastor Bigler said he wanted to clear the air that he did not go to Kosovo in the interest of the Serbian people of Butte or for any side. "Besides, Bigler added, I am the interim pastor of the First Presbyterian Church in Butte, I am from Idaho Falls, Idaho, and I have only been in Butte since February 9th of this year-I barely know these Butte people. Rev. Bigler is a former Army chaplain and medical specialist who served this country in Vietnam. He is no stranger to warfare and its victims, nor is he distracted by those who manipulate the facts in war to serve a political agenda. "For the sake of the integrity of my own church, I went to Kosovo to investigate the truth personally. I stopped relying on the nightly news and the media driven version of Kosovo, remember, I had firsthand experience in Vietnam, and when I read about some of the battles I witnessed with my own eyes, the news accounts were pure fiction, why should Bosnia or Kosovo be any different?" I told Rev. Bigler that I, too, was interested in what he discovered in Kosovo, regardless if it went against my belief system and the Serbs whom I have defended for several years. I assured him that regardless of his findings, I would print his story in the American Srbobran. I am not happy that the news he brings back from Kosovo confirms my worst fears, that this is a Jihad, a religious war to create a Muslim state in Europe, regardless of how small, or at what human sacrifice. I was granted this interview, three weeks after Rev. Bigler returned from Kosovo. I discovered an all together different Presbyterian minister than the one I had previously spoken with a month earlier. He had become a man with a cause who discovered the truth and was then victimized by the news media as we Serbs have been victimized for the past 6 years. He now refused to let the media mock what he knows to be the truth. His own local newspaper, The Montana Standard, conducted a two hour interview, promising the pastor front page headlines and a truthful presentation of what he had discovered in the Balkans. However, the article was postponed for two weeks, obviously until after the public interest in the Kosovo story had diminish and disappeared from the front pages of America's newspapers. The article written by Lorie Hutson, was an opinion piece about Kosovo peppered with enough of Bigler's remarks that it could technically qualify as an interview. Q: What was your initial impression of Kosovo? A: "I saw people in the fields harvesting their fall crops. I did not see refugees, homeless people, starving children, or wounded victims, the usual human suffering associated with war. Instead, I witnessed a building boom unseen in Idaho or Montana in 4 decades. This Kosovo building boom was not a few hundred Albanian homes being rebuilt because of war, these were thousands of expensive houses unseen in this part of the world. Homes costing $125,000 to $150,000 to build in what the world is being told is the poorest region of Europe and the poorest in the Balkans mocked the truth of what is really going on in Kosovo. It struck me of how successfully the American public has been hoodwinked by the media and special interest groups." Bigler went on to disclose, "All of these structures were Albanian in architecture with high walls surrounding them-not out in the open like the houses of the Serbs and other ethnic minorities in Kosovo. In Pristina, a city of about 400,000, nearly all of the apartments in the 10-12 story range had satellite dishes pointing toward Albania. Where is the money coming for all of this I asked myself?" Bigler also discovered another revelation, "By contrast, I did not find any building whatsoever taking place in the Serbian areas I had passed through or visited. In fact, Richard Holbrooke was staying at the Hyatt Hotel in Belgrade. Nearby the Hyatt are four unfinished hotels contemplated to be as large as the Hyatt, stopped in mid-construction by American sponsored sanctions, unemployment in Serbia is rampant with nearly 75% of the population out of work. How in God's name do you create peace under such deplorable conditions?" What Rev. Bigler discovered is that the money for this building boom in Kosovo is coming from illegal activities-gun running, drugs, prostitution and the sale of arsenals stolen from the Albanian government last year, being resold to Albanian terrorists. Rev. Bigler also discovered that the 3% tax imposed by the illegal (shadow) government of Kosovo headquartered in Ulm, Germany, was no state secret. Those same Albanians in Kosovo refuse to pay their share of taxes to the Serbian government of whose nation they are citizens. Q: Could you confirm the alleged oppression of Albanians by the Serbian government? A: "What oppression? Serbian state owned printing companies print Albanian language, newspapers, who is oppressing whom?" ... "I heard numerous radio stations in the Albanian language the week I was in Kosovo. Some of the hostile language that I heard directed at Serbs indicates that free speech is also alive and well in Kosovo. I saw Albanian children going to school and being instructed in their own Albanian language. People were dressed in clean clothes and were freshly bathed. The Serbs and Albanians with whom I spoke seemed to be equally concerned about the safety and welfare of their neighbors-I wondered aloud why Americans are being fed a daily diet of disinformation about Kosovo and why?" Q: Did you read the Albanian newspapers in Kosovo? A: "Indeed, and in one of those articles the week I was there, it openly stated the Albanian plan for a Jihad, (holy war) to take Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia and then finally northern Greece. I was particularly surprised that one of those Albanian newspapers had a weather map openly entitled 'Greater Albania.' The map encompassed Kosovo territory. I thought to myself, imagine how Serbs, Greeks and Macedonian citizens of Kosovo must feel when their Albanian neighbors are so blatantly open about creating a 'Greater Albania.' I remembered how the Serbs were demonized in the international press for allegedly harboring thoughts of a 'Greater Serbia' as the cause of the Bosnian war and I saw for myself why the Serbs are so outraged at our American double standards." Q: Could you confirm that Albanians represent 1.8 million in Kosovo? A: "This is an arrogant media deception. The gypsy population is as apparent in Kosovo as is the Albanian. There were far more Greeks, Macedonian and Turkish people than I expected, I remembered it made an impression on me. After all, I went to Kosovo believing that Albanians are 90% of the population. That simply is not true. Coming from such small cities as Idaho Falls or Butte I did not get a sense that there were 2 million people in Kosovo as Americans have been led to believe. I kept asking myself, why the distortions? Pristina seemed no more populated than down town Butte on a busy Saturday. I am curious why the facts are withheld from the American taxpayers, why our officials never mention these details and why the media continues to omit these facts from every article?" Q: Did you stop people at random and speak with them? A: "Yes, and what I discovered was that both Serbs and Albanians knew exactly what was going on. My reaction was that these people are not as oppressed and frightened by the Belgrade government, as they are of Albanian terrorists. I asked several people what they thought of President Clinton, a number of them replied, 'the best president money can buy, and it's no different in Belgrade, Zagreb or Sarajevo.'" Q: Are the Serbs in Kosovo suffering in this war? A: "Yes, they are the silent victims that the international community simply ignores. I was surprised to see many Serbian homes selectively burned. I asked why only Serbian houses were burned in some of these villages and I was told, 'Albanian terrorists burned out Serb families to provoke a Serb military response.' It was not until the Serbian army came to these villages and began ridding them of Albanian terrorists that CNN found these events newsworthy." Q: Did the Serbian government give you complete access to the people of Kosovo? A: "Absolutely, they also provided me with six body guards and two cars and told me I could go wherever I wished, talk with whomever I wanted and to ask people any questions I felt compelled to ask. I believe I am astute enough to know when things are being staged for me, or not, and there was no attempt to do that whatsoever. I had the same kind of protection in Zurich, Switzerland where the Counsel General supplied me with body guards. With the large illegal Albanian population in that city he was concerned for my safety, too." Q: Tell me about the phoney refugee camps. A: "While in Pristina, I spoke to several foreign journalists staying at the Grand Hotel who told me that refugee camps were being staged for the media, especially for CNN cameras. Several of the journalists confirmed that on numerous occasions, they actually saw villagers being brought into the forest where these fictitious refugee camps were set up. Once the photographs and interviews were over the villagers went back to their homes. I was told by Serbian army officials that helicopter units had photographed villagers going in and out of the forest for television interviews. This leads me to believe that several foreign journalists were accomplices to this fraud as many of them have been in Kosovo for weeks at a time." Q: Was there an apparent shortage of food? A: "No, in fact, food was everywhere. In Pristina I met with international humanitarian aid workers who shared with me their lists of recipients. The vast majority of names on these lists were Albanian names. According to these aid workers and Ms. Anka Knezevic from a Serbian humanitarian organization, nearly half of the food going into Kosovo to help Albanians was provided by the Serbian government, a fact that is never disclosed in the international press. So if we are to believe the stories about ethnic cleansing in Kosovo we are no doubt manipulated into believing that the Serbian government is both the 'aggressor' and the hand of mercy. An absurd concept considering the brutality of Balkan wars in this century. Bosnia and Kosovo were no exceptions." Q: We hear about the KLA walking around with weapons, what can you tell us about this? A: "Weapons are everywhere, you can buy a hand grenade for the equivalent of 60 cents. Kalashnikov rifles for $80 dollars and anti-tank rocket launchers for a few hundred dollars. This very weekend Reuter has reported 3 Serb police and their car were attacked with a rocket launcher in Kosovo. Interesting isn't it, how silent Gen. Wesley Clarke has been? I also saw autopsy reports of how non-Albanians were killed. Many were killed with German and American-made weapons. I was told by foreign journalists that mercenaries in Pristina were from such countries as Pakistan, Malaysia, Bangladesh and Turkey, it is obvious that Kosovo has been internationalized as an Islamic crusade." Q: Did you feel safe? A: "The only time I was scared was when my driver took me from the Serbian Monastery of Pec to Pristina. We drove over 100 miles per hour. Keep in mind these are not Montana highways as you and I know them. The reason given was that it is much more difficult for snipers to get a good shot when you are traveling at such a high rate of speed. Notice that none of the media stories dwell on the number of Serb and Albanian victims that were killed by snipers." Q: I understand that you were on Belgrade television? A: "Yes, several times. People stopped me in the street to thank me for coming and for doing independent investigations. They were grateful that I was a Christian minister. On one occasion, we were having dinner with a group of humanitarian aid workers and the owner of the Serbian restaurant recognized me from the television interviews and refused to present my table with a final bill, it was his way of thanking me. I found the Serbian people to be warm and loving, just as I have found them in Butte. Much to my surprise, they were not as bitter toward Americans as I expected, however they were quite vocal at how their allies in two world wars have again betrayed them just as they betrayed them to communism fifty years ago. They are insulted that the international media has succeeded in demonizing all Serbs for the alleged crimes of a few." Q: Did you meet with the Serbian Patriarch? A: "Yes, and what a rich experience. He reminded me that 'Abel had a right to defend himself against Kane.' He also reminded me that the Serbian people have a right to defend their nation against terrorists. He is dismayed that the diplomatic community has ignored and isolated the Serbian Orthodox church, much like Tito did under communism. He does not understand why the major powers have failed to include him in important decisions when the Pope has been given ample access to express his views on Balkan matters. I also discovered that Patriarch Paul led the first and many demonstrations through the streets of Belgrade to protest against the Milosevich government. He also reminded me that in 1989 when he was the Bishop of Kosovo, he was a victim of a beating by Albanian youths." Q: Who in the Serbian government did you meet? A: "On my arrival on October 8th, I had a meeting with the Director of the Public Relations Department of the MFA, Mr. Rade Drobac. That same day I met with the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Fr. of Yugoslavia, Zivadin Jovanovic. Later that day I met with a high-ranking officer of the Yugoslav Army, Col. Milan Petkovic. The following day I met with Counselor and Head of the Cabinet of the Minister for Religious Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Dragan Novakovic and Minister of Religions, Milovan Radovanovic. Later that morning I met with Dr. Milorad Ekmedzic, academician and professor of history. This was prior to my departure to Kosovo. While in Pristina I also met with Radovan Urosevic, director of the Pristina Media Center at the Grand Hotel." When I arrived in Kosovo I had a meeting with high governmental officials in the Serbian province of Kosovo and Metohija, Zoran Andjelovic, President of the Provisional Executive Council of Kosovo and members of the provincial council which consisted of two Albanians and one Turkish representative, I apologize for not remembering their names, most of the people I met gave me business cards. I also had meetings with Veljko Odalovic, head of the district of Kosovo and Metohija and Bosko Drobnjak, Provincial Information Secretary. On my return to Belgrade I met with Dr. Miroljub Jeftic, eminent expert in the field of Islam at the faculty of Political Sciences followed by a meeting with the Minister for National Minority Affairs of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Ivan Sedlak. I also met with Tatjana Lenard, Chief Editor for Foreign Affairs for Radio/Television, Serbia, Belgrade. An interesting side note, on my return to Butte from Kosovo I was greeted with a telephone call from the Lasiewicz Foundation of Los Angeles who then sent me 17 pages on my fax machine in an attempt to convince me that what I saw with my own eyes in Kosovo was a mirage and therefore I was encouraged to believe her propaganda. Thank you, Mr. Dorich, for informing me that she has never been to Bosnia or Kosovo and that what little humanitarian aid her foundation gave to Bosnian victims went only to non-Serbs. I believe I sensed that from her need to belittle Serbs in our conversation. I have now come to realize that the forces of Islam and the enormous resources being spent in media manipulation is behind this farce to rob the Serbian nation and her people of what is rightfully theirs." Q: Did you meet with any foreign diplomats? A: "Yes, and one of the most impressive was a high-ranking official from India. He told me 'there are one billion Indians and 2 billion Chinese which accounts for two-thirds of the world's population, and that all of them, plus the Russians, are totally against what NATO and the major powers are doing in Serbia.' I asked this high ranking diplomat, who I am sure would not appreciate being identified, if India would respond to a bombing of Serbia, he said, 'you can count on it.!'" Q: Now that you have been to Kosovo what do you think is behind this NATO driven policy? A: "What I discovered on this trip was that the coal reserves in the Kosovo region are considered one of the largest in Europe. Recent findings indicate that the oil reserves under Kosovo could be potentially as big as those in the Caspian Sea. This does not include the other minerals that permeate this region, estimated at some $3 trillion. I am convinced that multi-national corporations in a marriage with the military are behind this drive to totally destroy the Serbian nation, even if it means violating the Helsinki Accords on the sovereignty of Serbia. Richard Holbrooke last week boasted on international television that NATO was victorious over Kosovo proving NATO's superiority over the sovereignty of nations when the allies' interest is at stake. Even Gen. Wesley Clarke recently said, 'Serbian sovereignty be damned" indicating what little respect we have for the international treaties we sign in our quest for what we openly redefine as our interest. Such arrogance will surely lead us into another World War. In my opinion, we seem determined to decided for the Serbian people who is qualified to run their government, then shove that decision down their throats. After we have succeeded in destroying their economy we now offer them IMF loans as the carrot at the end of our stick, knowing full well the Serbian people are no longer capable of repaying such loans in this life time or the next. Then, like we are currently doing in Brazil, we will ride in on our white horse and help them survive by buying as many of their national assets as we can get our hands on ... at 20 cents on the dollar, of course. This is truly the tail wagging the dog in our foreign policy. We have allowed the media and special interest groups to distort the truth and to portray the Serbian people as Nazis in order to steal their natural resources. I do not support the Milosevich regime, but, I am totally against achieving political goals by starving a nation of people into submission while denying them medicine and food. That, Mr. Dorich, is genocide by sanctions, and it's just as ugly as anything that was done in this war. The Serbian government has nearly a billion dollars in frozen assets outside of their country, $600 million in the United States. My goal is to unfreeze these assets and allow the people of Serbia the human dignity of proper medical care. Before this war, Yugoslavia ranked 3rd in medical care in Europe, today they rank at the level of a 3rd world country. Serbian children have died from a simple lack of antibiotics while our elected officials preached self-determination and democracy. For the last seven years, 95% of the Serbian people have received no medical care whatsoever. As a medical specialist, I can assure you that the Serbian people suffer from the same percentage per capita of cancer, heart disease and diabetes in their population as the population in the United States. Withholding medicine and medical care from this population for seven years has increased the rate of death from these diseases in Serbia by as much as 20%. Those who have died have suffered inconceivable deaths without traditional pain-killing drugs. This is inhuman, unacceptable and damned unchristian. Serbian children have already been doomed to a shortened life span that may not be reversible. It is therefore my goal to organize humanitarian aid through the Presbyterian church and through other organizations to distribute aid directly into Belgrade if I have to fly the airplanes myself. I was told by numerous people in the medical system in Serbia that the limited assistance that was attempted to reach the Serbian people during the Bosnian war was pilfered at Serbia's borders by Serbia's neighbors as the United Nations and world looked away. As a Christian minister I refuse to allow people to become complacent or silence, or worse, to seek vengeance believing that Serbs deserve this kind of punishment. No society, especially the American society, can subvert our dedication to human rights by a willful lack of conscience." Note: Rev. Bigler made numerous attempts to meet with Albanian officials in Kosovo but Albanians thwarted these attempts. He took video footage of his entire visit and numerous photographs.

[Great Dane]

Just about the only multinational area left in the Balkans, is Serbia.

[Great Dane]

On the contrary, I used to think NATO was doing the right thing until Kosovo, I have learned a lot since, you could do with the same education.

[ABrit]

So educate me, whats wrong with Kosovo?

[Leonora]

Whatever you are on........ could you send me some.

LOL. Interesting fellow.

[AIBC]

A brain-washed CNN-watching, Tony-Baloney-listening Brit.

[Leonora]

He ain't no Brit. I think he's an Albanian living in Britain. (Maybe that's why his freep name is ABrit - Albanian Brit)

[ABrit]

So is it just a random abuse generator you@ve got, or are there some thought processes going on in the space between between those ears of yours?

[Spar]

Long live the Scottish Parliament! Oh and Free Wales!! Dare I say Liberte Quebec!?

[Spar]

The law is law, morality is fungible. I was hungry therfore it was right of me to rob the bank. Try making that argument the next time you go before a criminal court.

[Spar]

So educate me, whats wrong with Kosovo?

Let the education begin. Make sure you read all the linked articles.

BIN LADEN GATE

[ABrit]

Thanks for the post, but I already knew al Qaeda were bad guys and Clinton was a defective President.

What I want to know is why "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of human happiness" is ok for the US, but apparently not ok, according to many on this site, for the Kosovars.

[ABrit]

One days report, copied from the federation of American Scientists site. 02 October 1998

TEXT: KOSOVO DIPLOMATIC OBSERVER MISSION DAILY REPORT, SEPT. 30

(Compiled from daily reports of U.S. element of KDOM) (600)



(The following KDOM Daily Report was compiled by EUR/SCE
(202-647-4850) from daily reports of the U.S. element of the Kosovo
Diplomatic Observer Mission and released by the Bureau of European and
Canadian Affairs, Office of South Central European Affairs, U.S.
Department of State, Washington, DC, September 30, 1998.) KDOM Daily
Report
September 30, 1998 This morning at about 10:30 a vehicle operated by
the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) hit a land mine 2
km. southeast of Likovac (near the site where a Canadian vehicle hit a
mine on September 14 and a Serbian police vehicle was destroyed,
killing five, on September 26). One doctor was killed and two others
injured. The fatality was an ethnic Albanian; the injured, another
Albanian and a New Zealander. A U.S. KDOM team was nearby at the time
of the explosion and able to provide assistance, including arranging
for Serbian authorities to provide a medevac helicopter to pick up the
injured and move them to the Pristina hospital. KDOM performed a
preliminary investigation of the alleged massacre of 14 Albanian men
in Golubovac. An alleged eyewitness told the team that, while Serbian
police attacked the village (see KDOM Daily 9/29) another group
tortured, mutilated, then shot the 14 victims whose bodies were buried
in the woods 2 km. east of the village. KDOM saw the site, pools of
blood in the dirt, tools allegedly used to stab the victims, and some
small-caliber shell casings. Residents of the area told KDOM of the
surrounding hills being littered with large numbers of bodies. KDOM
could not substantiate these reports. IDPs [internally displaced
persons] in the Suva Reka region told KDOM that the Serbian offensive
there began on September 26. First with artillery then infantry, the
Serbians forced an estimated 20,000 villagers from their homes and
into the mountains. A convoy of 240 IDP vehicles fleeing the offensive
was stopped and attacked by Serbian police on September 27, according
to IDPs. KDOM located the remains of the convoy on the Vranic Road and
noted that 150+ of the vehicles were burned or destroyed. The IDPs
traveling with the convoy were detained for 24 hours without food,
water, or facilities. IDPs also alleged that some women in this group
were sedated, beaten, and raped. Some of the men were reportedly
tortured, and one old woman and three children died during the
detainment. Local authorities told KDOM that several villages (Vic,
Kastanenevo, Biti, and Izhance) southwest of Urosevac were attacked by
VJ [called for translation] and police forces without warning on
September 28. 2,500 local residents reportedly fled to Urosevac. UNHCR
teams were in Likovac, Pec, Prizren, and Orahovac today, and a small
convoy delivered supplies to IDPs in the area east of Komorane. The
German NGO Kinderberg surveyed medical facilities in the Paragusa
valley where approximately 45,000 people reside (including 35,000
IDPs). The prevalent problems remain diarrhea, pediculosis, scabies,
and infectious diseases. Supplies of vacines in the valley are low.
KDOM visited the F.R.Y. ["Federal Republic of Yugoslavia"]
humanitarian relief center in Glogovac where the director said they
had been in operation for 3 months. KDOM noted that, as of 9:55 am
seven people had visited the center for supplies. All had ethnic
Albanian names. KDOM noted approximately 300 IDPs living in the open
near Golubovac. (End of document)


s

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[Kate22]

'ABrit' - anyone can get a British passport nowadays (apparently Italian is pretty easy as well). Being British and having a British passport are two very different things. And why would you come on to this forum advertising your Britishness? Most of us keep our heads low so that people don't start making vicious comments about dentistry or think that we're similar to those currently in the political limelight (perish the thought).

Why come straight to the Balkans threads and launch into history lessons? You must have been lurking for some time to know the tone, subjects and levels of specific discussion areas. You immediately launched into trying to disprove some of the posters who have been on here for years. Whether you agree with them or not, there are some very knowledgable people here.

Unfortunately, very few of us in Britain care about Kosovo or Serbia especially as it's hardly mentioned, and those who do still care tend to have been against it and still reeling from shock that we dropped bombs on Belgrade (which was like bombing Paris or any other European capital to some of us). That is unless (a) you're one of Tony's cronies/ in the military; (b) you work for The Guardian and are frustrated because no-one wants to read your stories anymore; or (c) you have some other personal involvement (eg. you're an Albanian, Slovenian, Croatian who has a personal agenda or hates Serbs - in which case you have some company here on FR who I believe that you've met already). Maybe you're a renamed former poster?

Most of the British people who know anything about it, were disgusted by the attack on Serbia which fought alongside our own nation in WWII. My own grandfather and uncles met Serbian troops during the war and praised them (well before March 1999) for their bravery, humility and 'streak of madness' when facing battle (rich coming from the English). My relatives were terribly ashamed by the British betrayal by Toby Law - but that's a whole other story.

The 'fellow travellers' that you describe in Britain who are old and wise enough to remember these facts, and to have been disgusted by Britain's participation in an unprovoked attack against a non-threatening nation on our own Continent, were not just Left Wingers. Lord Skiddalsky, Peter Tapsell, Alan Clark… there were plenty of others who spoke against the bombing and were horrified by it.

New Labour stemmed any democratic discussion and slammed a 'D Notice' on the media to prevent the 'facts' coming out. This despite the fact that such measures are only used in times of war, and we were repeatedly told by Chairman Blaair that this was 'not a war'.

The fact that Britain's main role under Blaaair was to advise on the lying which came out of Nato HQ (Alastair Campbell was Eurostarred to Brussels when Jamie 'O'Liar' Shea couldn't get dirty enough) is totally repulsive. Mark Laity, the BBC's own correspondent based at Nato HQ was given a job as the Nato spokesman because he did such a 'good job' on the Serbs, um, I mean on his 'unbiased reporting during the conflict'.

I am English and joined FR because I stumbled across a certain thread in 1999 which was linked to a news index. I was against the bombing of Serbia and horrified that Britain, under the wannabe- dictator Chairman Blaair, played such an active role. There are plenty of people here who know much about the subject. Clinton and Blair were in bed together (who knows??!) on the Third [Reich] Way concept which somehow led to the 'humanitarian war'.

At least I note that you don't disagree that it was illegal, but your notion that law should be ignored when something is 'morally right' is deeply disturbing. Such a concept of who is 'morally right' is the sort of drivel that Alastair Campbell dreams up and the lightweights in New Labour lap up. What next? Hanging a shoplifter because you feel that it is your 'moral' obligation? Don't be ridiculous.

Laws can be changed through the appropriate channels, not altered to suit the moment or the political agenda. Nato breached the UN Charter, Nato's own Charter, the Geneva Convention, Helsinki Agreement etc. Those agreements were drawn up so carefully and have provided the structure for international law and security very effectively since WWII.

It is certainly not 'morally right', to any sane person, to launch state terrorism against a nation to try and force it to give up part of its land, especially when your land army and 'Allies' are known narco-terrorists who have been fighting a separatist battle against the state in which they live (and still live, because Kosovo remains part of Serbia).

[By the way, for your reference and as JMS has told you: Yugoslavia was not part of the Communist bloc, and never signed the Warsaw Pact. It was part of a different non-aligned movement and it was this very independence which was so disliked by the 'West'.]

Now, here she is…

…that "crypto communist propaganda source" behind the Committee for Peace in the Balkans. None other than Alice Mahon, MP for Halifax in Yorkshire, member of the North Atlantic Assembly and Chair of the Committee for Security and Cooperation in South East Europe. Here is a link to her stance on the bombing of Serbia. She actually bothered to visit the country (unlike Keith Vaz that bloated corrupt Minister for Europe who has now been sacked) and went out of her way not to meet Milosevic during her visit.

Nobody in Britain would describe her in the way that you did. Like Tony Benn she is respected throughout parliament on Right and Left (and I've never met a British person yet who had a bad word to say against her). It's true that she hates war (who except total morons, teenagers and Blaaair would like war for the sake of it?) but she is well-respected for her knowledge and expertise - hence her position in, and involvement with, various internationally-respected groups.

Your question 'what's wrong with Kosovo?' gives you away. For someone with so much background info (even though much of it has been debunked by my fellow posters), you could not seriously ask that question unless you are a supporter of the KLA. I hope for your sake that you're not in Kosovo, because the 'peace' isn't going to last very long.

"As far as independence for Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Croatia, Kosovo, Slovenia, Bosnia, (even the USA), I am all for it, as long as it represents the freely expressed will of the people."

You know, 'ABrit', it takes more than the anglicising of words to make a convincing English person. I notice that the only country which you have missed off the above list is England!! As you will know, Scotland is more or less independent now, Ireland (Eire) is independent (again, strange that an English person of your knowledge would not draw a distinction between Eire and Northern Ireland), Wales has full autonomy (but there is a big difference between devolution and independence).

England does not have its own parliament. Anyone that I've met with the pro-independence attitude that you're displaying, does not forget the role of their 'own' nation. You don't cut off all your surrounding nations and then just 'float' on your own with no written constitution or parliament. Besides which, how would you have an 'English' passport without these things?

[By the way, it is against British interests to have full independence for Scotland… we would lose the North Sea oil which could not be permitted to happen.]

There is a big difference between Wales, 'Ireland', Scotland, England and Croatia etc. - the British nations are 'our' business, but the others are not. Why would 'we' have an interest in securing independent for the Albanians who live in Serbia? What the heck has it to do with 'us'?

Finally, I would be most interested to know, if you are prepared to share your personal insights:
- what you think of Blair;
- what you think of the KLA;
- whether you agree that a Greater Albania should be formed with Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and more of Serbia;
- why you would support Islamic fundamentalism and the Albanian mafia in the heart of your own continent;
- why you appear to be the last remaining 'Briton' who is pro Albanian independence and virulently anti-Serbian. Strange that! And for apparently no reason at all!

[ABrit]

Yours in italics, mine not.

ABrit' - anyone can get a British passport nowadays (apparently Italian is pretty easy as well). Being British and having a British passport are two very different things. And why would you come on to this forum advertising your Britishness? Most of us keep our heads low so that people don't start making vicious comments about dentistry or think that we're similar to those currently in the political limelight (perish the thought).

Wrong, I am British, English to be specific, and I’m not afraid of saying so.

Why come straight to the Balkans threads and launch into history lessons? You must have been lurking for some time to know the tone, subjects and levels of specific discussion areas. You immediately launched into trying to disprove some of the posters who have been on here for years. Whether you agree with them or not, there are some very knowledgable people here.

Wrong, if you think the only way to know anything about anything is from this website, and by the way I didn’t come straight to this thread.

Serbian troops during the war and praised them (well before March 1999) for their bravery.

The way I heard it the United States and the United Kingdom had backed Tito during the closing years of World War Two in spite of his Communist affiliation and his never-disguised intention of turning Yugoslavia into a Communist country. Tito's Yugoslav opposition, Draza Mihailovic, a Serbian general in the pre-war royalist regime, had decided that it was more important to oppose Tito's Communist Partisans than to engage fully against the Germans. For the Allies, therefore, support for Tito was a pragmatic response to the need to tie down some 20 German divisions in the Balkans while the invasion of France was being prepared.

Yugoslavia was not part of the Communist bloc.

 

Wrong, Yugoslavia was expelled from the Cominform by Stalin in 1948. Became "non aligned", in the same way that Cuba and Vietnam were "non aligned".

The picture you draw of British attitudes to the Balkans could only possibly be held by someone on the loony left, or the very loony right.

Alice Mahon MP, like I said, a crypto communist on the far left of the labour party. "Like Tony Benn she is respected throughout parliament on Right and Left"..... I fell on the floor laughing when I read that.

Finally, I would be most interested to know, if you are prepared to share your personal insights:
- what you think of Blair; ......Too right wing for the Labour Party.
- what you think of the KLA;......They did what they had to do.
- whether you agree that a Greater Albania should be formed with Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and more of Serbia;....No, but if Albanians want a country for Albanians, then fine.

- why you would support Islamic fundamentalism and the Albanian mafia in the heart of your own continent;.....Did I ever say that? I don’t think so.

Kate, you are so rabid it's unbelievable.

Do you belong to the Campaign for Genocide in the Balkans, I bet you'd like to.

By the way your notion about law taking precedence over morality is laughable. Where would we have been without the sufferagettes, and their illegal protests? Well you would have been without a vote.

You Kate, are completely wrong in your assertions. In short, you are a twerp.

Is that English enough for you?

[Kate22]

No, but if Albanians want a country for Albanians, then fine.

It's called Albania, dufuss.

[vooch]

You must have forgotten the Swiss Newspaper article posted here a few weeks ago in which KVM observers are quoted saying that their reports were falsified by higher ups.

as for the Yugo military equipment...most of it was made right in country.......the Sov's didn't supply much of anything. You might as well call India a Soviet stooge for buying MIG's instead of Lockheed.

Kate22......thks for explaining things to ABrit

[Gael]

So your history comes from....the Institute for Balkan Studies Belgrade. Now let me see, in communist countries, what is the first thing to get the makeover treatment.........of course.....the history lessons.

Imagine that, looking to Serbian sources for Serbian history. Your “commies under every rock” mindset is quite amusing – you wouldn’t be the reincarnation of Roy Cohn by any chance? BTW, Prof. Batakovic is hardly a commie. More a Serb nationalist – you know, the sort that Britannia spurned in favor of Tito. I note the utter absence of a substantive response from you on that latter point. Thanks for the concession.

Perhaps you missed Batakovic’ point that the new Yugoslavia had popular approval in 1918, and the opposition to it was stirred up by outsiders (Italy in that case) – some things never change, do they? And it was achieved with no Black and Tans murdering the population, no spurious "Free State", and no truncated six-county enclave. No wonder the Brits, or at least ABrit, find it so troubling.

[Great Dane]

Dare I say Liberte Quebec!?

Nothing wrong with that statement...... I have offered to help them pack.

[Great Dane]

Let the education begin. Make sure you read all the linked articles.

LOL, somehow I don't think ABrit really wants to get educated, some people find it too hard to admit they were wrong.

[Great Dane]

Excellent Kate, thank you.