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2,000 & Counting: H.W. Crocker III on his new history of the Catholic Church
National Review Online ^ | 3/29/02 | Kathryn Jean Lopez

Posted on 03/29/2002 8:20:08 AM PST by H.R. Gross

March 29, 2002, 8:30 a.m.
2,000 & Counting
H. W. Crocker III on his new history of the Catholic Church.

Q&A by Kathryn Jean Lopez

Kathryn Jean Lopez: You're not a historian. Why take on a history of the Catholic Church?

Harry Crocker: Funny, I asked myself — and my publisher — that question when I embarked on this project. The answer that came back is that, like Paul Johnson, I was a journalist who'd written frequently on historical topics. I also had a definite point of view on Church history, which was that it was being hijacked for liberal propaganda with the endless stream of books like Constantine's Sword, Hitler's Pope, and Papal Sin. I wanted to respond with the real story. I relied heavily on secular sources to show that an affirmative history of the Catholic Church is really the objective argument from history. And, of course, I wanted to make it exciting reading — a swashbuckling account full of knights and battles.

Lopez: Were there things you learned that you never knew?

Crocker: The great thing about Catholic history is that it's the history of everything. For example, the history of the Catholic Church and the history of Europe are synonymous for more than a millennium. In fact, the Church is the most important institution in the shaping of the Western world. And because the Church has always been involved in politics, philosophy, scholarship, and art, the bounds of Catholic history are virtually limitless. The Renaissance is a perfect Catholic moment. Just as the Renaissance rediscovered the classical world and so renewed the intellectual and aesthetic vistas of Western civilization, so too today if we rediscover Catholic history, our intellectual and aesthetic vistas become deeper, wider, and clearer. There is no end of learning in Catholic history.

Lopez: Besides Christ's Resurrection, is there a moment in church history that stands out for you as a greatest moment?

Crocker: Many great moments, but I think perhaps the greatest symbolic moment is when St. Ambrose compelled the Roman emperor Theodosius to do penance in his church for ordering the revenge killing of a circus mob that had murdered one of the emperor's generals. The idea of an unarmed prelate forcing the commander of all Rome's legions to do penance is a new thing in the history of the world. Here is one of the Church's greatest political gifts to the West — often unrecognized — a moral check on state power. Until the Reformation, that check was the Church.

Lopez: Things you learned you wished you hadn't?

Crocker: Not about the Church — more about the Church's opponents, because being of English extraction I very much wanted to see the other chap's point of view. Of course many of them, like Frederick the Great, do have their moments.

Lopez: Regarding the scandals that have the Church in the news everyday now, are there lessons to take from the Church's past for the faithful, the clergy, and for the rest of the world — the media covering it, etc. — a context to put it in?

Crocker: I think most lay Catholics understand that the Church is a divine institution staffed by human beings who are as subject to sin as anyone else. Even the pope has a confessor. I do think that these scandals have been seriously misreported. I think reporters are loath to run stories headlined "Experience of Church with Homosexual Priests Confirms Boy Scout Fears" even though that appears to be the real story, as the bulk of these cases involve homosexual overtures to post-pubescent boys. But just as liberals have misread what these cases are about, so too have they misread the tea leaves about the future. The outcome of these scandals will be not a more liberal Church, but a more conservative one. It was, after all, liberal moral laxity that got the Church into this mess; and the Church, if not liberal columnists, understands that more liberalism is not going to get the Church out of it. The Church will find its sources of moral renewal where it has always found them, in fidelity to Church teaching, not in liberal compromise with the world.

Lopez: Is there any kind of historical equivalent?

Crocker: Pedophilia and molesting adolescent boys are inexcusable and terrible crimes, but we don't have to look into history for an equivalent to them. As far as we have statistical data we know that priests are no more inclined to pedophilic acts than ministers of any other denomination or than the lay public. In fact, the evidence we have so far suggests that they are less inclined. So if we want to see sin and heinous crimes against innocence, just look around.

Lopez: What's "triumphant" about a Church with so many flaws?

Crocker: The Church is triumphant in that it has survived where all other earthly powers have faded into history; because it has carried on the sacraments; because it has proclaimed the teachings of Christ for 2,000-years. The Church is "flawed" only because it works through human beings who are as flawed as were the Apostles. We also know that as far as these "flaws" refer to sheer history — "the black legends" of the Church — secular historians are proving them false. This is most famously the case with the Spanish Inquisition. The traditional portrait of horror has now been shown irrefutably to be a myth; and in fact we have a new picture of a judicial body that was among the most lenient and enlightened of its time. If you don't believe me, look up Henry Kamen's book from the Yale University Press; or check out the documentary that the BBC did a few years ago. But this is a continuity in Church history. The Church rarely responds to its critics. Like the poster boy of Renaissance popes, Alexander VI, the Church's attitude has always been: "Rome is a free city where everyone can say or write whatever he pleases. They say much evil of me, but I don't mind." Unfortunately, however admirable that tolerant attitude, it is how these myths and black legends get started. My book, Triumph, is the missing response. It's the history of the Church, I've come to realize, as seen through the eyes of Maximus, the hero of the movie Gladiator. It's a book that echoes to the marching of the Roman legions, the clanking armor of the Crusader armies, and — oh well, what we're left with — the barked orders of the Swiss Guards of the Vatican!

H. W. Crocker, executive editor of Regnery Publishing, is author of the new book Triumph: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: catholiclist
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1 posted on 03/29/2002 8:20:08 AM PST by H.R. Gross
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To: H.R. Gross
My copy is on the way hopefully it will be here this weekend....
2 posted on 03/29/2002 8:49:20 AM PST by .45MAN
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To: patent
This has your name written all over it....Happy Easter....
3 posted on 03/29/2002 8:56:52 AM PST by LibertyGirl77
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To: H.R. Gross
Hooray for H.W. Crocker! Sean Hannity interviewed him on his radio program yesterday. This "crisis" in the church is going to lead to good things, just as Christ's crucifixion did. Hooray for the Catholic Church and its imminent restoration!
4 posted on 03/29/2002 9:10:11 AM PST by St.Chuck
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To: St.Chuck
I can't wait! I see it in our parish. In the faces of the people. They know their faith and their Church is being tested and they are resolute. They are there and they are praying and I would guess, praying for the Church harder than ever.
5 posted on 03/29/2002 9:25:47 AM PST by tiki
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To: H.R. Gross
"Experience of Church with Homosexual Priests Confirms Boy Scout Fears"

Not holding my breath, but wouldn't it be nice to see that headline?

6 posted on 03/29/2002 9:40:35 AM PST by trad_anglican
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To: ELS, ventana, Notwithstanding, father_elijah, saradippity, nickcarraway, redhead, Salvation, ven
Bump. Now up to #12 on Amazon!
7 posted on 03/29/2002 9:48:10 AM PST by Diago
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: overseer5
But it's the truth. Or haven't you read anything published about the Inquisition in the last century? Most of the "Black Legend" was based on English propaganda and on the works of a man who admitted that he couldn't prove his claims because (he said) he'd destroyed the records himself.

Islamic terrorists killed more people in 2 hours on 9/11 than the Spanish Inquisition killed in 300 years.

9 posted on 03/29/2002 10:28:07 AM PST by Campion
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To: LibertyGirl77; Diago; father_elijah; Antoninus; aposiopetic; Salvation; ELS; nina0113; Steve0113...
Thanks for the bumps.
10 posted on 03/29/2002 12:21:14 PM PST by patent
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To: patent
The great thing about Catholic history is that it's the history of everything.

Which is why, of course, it is the favorite target of liberals. I wouldn't mind so much the left trying to tear down and bury western civilization if they would at least tell us what they have in mind instead. But they don't.

11 posted on 03/29/2002 12:31:36 PM PST by LarryLied
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To: .45MAN
I'm going to Amazon as soon as I get off this thread and get one on the way to me. Sounds like a great read!
12 posted on 03/29/2002 1:02:30 PM PST by pgkdan
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To: overseer5
Why??? He's telling the truth. The true story of the Inquisition has been slowly coming out for years.
13 posted on 03/29/2002 1:03:34 PM PST by pgkdan
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To: LarryLied
I wouldn't mind so much the left trying to tear down and bury western civilization if they would at least tell us what they have in mind instead. But they don't.

I think it would look a lot like the stuff you see on this thread.

14 posted on 03/29/2002 1:15:20 PM PST by Campion
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To: Diago
Thanks for the flag.

I think reporters are loath to run stories headlined "Experience of Church with Homosexual Priests Confirms Boy Scout Fears" even though that appears to be the real story, as the bulk of these cases involve homosexual overtures to post-pubescent boys.

Considering that many newspaper editors support the homosexual agenda and, to put it mildly, dislike religion and the Catholic Church in particular, they will probably never print an accurate headline or article.

But just as liberals have misread what these cases are about, so too have they misread the tea leaves about the future. The outcome of these scandals will be not a more liberal Church, but a more conservative one. It was, after all, liberal moral laxity that got the Church into this mess; and the Church, if not liberal columnists, understands that more liberalism is not going to get the Church out of it. The Church will find its sources of moral renewal where it has always found them, in fidelity to Church teaching, not in liberal compromise with the world.

I certainly hope so. It was the Church's moral wisdom that brought me back.

15 posted on 03/29/2002 2:02:09 PM PST by ELS
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To: H.R. Gross
Sitting on my bookshelf, waiting for me to read it.
16 posted on 03/29/2002 4:24:30 PM PST by Mr. Thorne
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To: H.R. Gross
Bump
17 posted on 03/29/2002 5:30:43 PM PST by redhead
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To: H.R. Gross
It was, after all, liberal moral laxity that got the Church into this mess

True, very true.

The outcome of these scandals will be not a more liberal Church, but a more conservative one.

Oh how I pray he is right about this.

Thanks for posting this interview. I received my copy of this book yesterday. I ordered it because I read some favorable reviews on Amazon when searching for books on Church history. I'll start it as soon as I finish the book I'm currently reading- "Till we have faces" by C.S. Lewis.

18 posted on 03/29/2002 5:53:45 PM PST by Nubbin
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To: patent
Thanks for the ping. I can't wait to read it.
19 posted on 03/29/2002 7:08:50 PM PST by constitutiongirl
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To: H.R. Gross
The great thing about Catholic history is that it's the history of everything.

I agree. The problem is the West and the Church in the United States and how it has been influenced by the downward spiraling morals of the people of the U. S.

20 posted on 03/29/2002 9:27:23 PM PST by Salvation
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